Wartawan Sudan DIPENGGAL
http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/
Ini beritanya tatkala peristiwanya baru pecah:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/4516539.stm
Mohamed Taha dituduh bersalah karena menghina Islam, demikian pemerintah Sudan, tetapi dibebaskan setelah meminta maaf dam membayar denda. Tapi ternyata permintaan maaf itu tidak cukup. Taha kemudian diculik dan DIPENGGAL karena kejahatan melawan Islam oleh mereka yg merasa bahwa penindasan pemerintah terhdp surat kabarnya belum cukup.
Editor SK Sudan yg membuat geram Muslim tahun lalu dgn menerbitkan
artikel yg memuat pertanyaan ttg garis keturunan nabi Muhamad ditemukan tewas di ibukota, Khartum.
Orang2 bersenjata bertopeng menculik Mohamed Taha, kepala editor
Al-Wifaq, di kediamannya hari Selasa lalu. Tubuhnya yg tidak berkepala ditemukan di bagian lain kota itu. Kepalanya diletakkan didekat tubuhnya, dan tangan dan kakinya diikat, demikian laporan Reuters.
Tahun lalu, Taha menerbitkan artikel yg mengacu pada teks kuno yg dianalisa sejarawan Muslim, Al-Maqrizi, yg mempertanyakan garis keturunan Muhamad. Padahal Taha hanya menulis komentar pendek ttg tulisan Al Maqrizi yg JUSTRU MENOLAK sejarah versinya. (naas betul!)
Namun para pemimpin agama di Khartum tidak puas dan mengecam karya Taha dan pemrotes menyerukan agar ia DIBUNUH.
Jaksa mencoba menjatuhkan tuduhan penodaan agama, tuduhan yg bisa dikenakan hukuman mati dibawah Shariah di Sudan.
Taha, didenda $3,000, meminta maaf karena membuat sakit hati Muslim dan surat kabarnya dibredel sementara.
---------------------------------------
PERSIS PERISTIWA ARSWENDO. UNTUNG DIA NGGAK DIPENGGAL ! Shocked Shocked
_________________
Saya bersumpah akan kembali ke Islam jika ada Muslim di situs ini yg merelakan puteri mereka yg berumur 9 thn utk berbagi ranjang dgn saya (SESUAI DGN CONTOH MUHAMAD !)Wink
bai de we, FFI BUKAN Forum Kristen. Para penginjil silahkan ke situs lain.
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yusuf_bin_sanusi
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Location: Di Luar Tenda si Momed, ngintip doi ber-Pedophil ria..asyiikk.. :)
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 9:57 am Post subject: Reply with quote
Hasil pekerjaan manusia robot berkemampuan inteligensia dan akal budi dibawah kemampuan inteligensia dan akal BABI dan MONYET...! benar2 agama sakit !!!!
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 10:01 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L12790076.htm
Man claims beheading of Sudan editor for al Qaeda
12 Sep 2006 12:48:31 GMT
KHARTOUM, Sept 12 (Reuters) - A man purporting to lead an African branch of the al Qaeda militant network claimed responsibility on Tuesday for the beheading of a Sudanese newspaper editor who was found dead last week.
The man, in a statement distributed to Sudanese newspapers, called editor Mohamed Taha a "dog of dogs from the ruling party", and accused him of insulting the prophet Mohammad.
"Three individuals from this organisation undertook this operation ... and they are now outside Sudan", said the statement, a copy of which was obtained by Reuters. The statement was signed by Abu Hafs al-Sudani, who said he was the leader of al Qaeda in Sudan and Africa.
Taha, an ally of the government, was reported kidnapped from outside his home in the capital Khartoum a week ago, and was found dead on Wednesday.
_________________
Saya bersumpah akan kembali ke Islam jika ada Muslim di situs ini yg merelakan puteri mereka yg berumur 9 thn utk berbagi ranjang dgn saya (SESUAI DGN CONTOH MUHAMAD !)Wink
Tuesday, November 20, 2007
Islamic groups hit curriculum at Saudi school
Here is CAIR's Ibrahim Hooper, of all people, doing and saying what he ought to have been doing and saying all along. Or at least seeming to do so. Pardon me if I am suspicious, in light of the organization's track record. From the Washington Times, with thanks to Jeffrey Imm and Nicolei:
Two Islamic groups say a private Saudi school in Alexandria is teaching first-graders an extreme version of Islam that fosters contempt for other religions, a charge denied by the Saudi government, which creates curriculum for such schools.
The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), a District-based Islamic civil rights and advocacy group, has joined with the Free Muslim Coalition Against Terrorism in calling for an Arabic textbook to be removed from classes at the Islamic Saudi Academy.
One page in the manual for the first-grade textbook instructs teachers to tell students that any religion other than Islam is false.
"These first-grade students are very impressionable," said Kamal Nawash, a Palestinian and practicing Muslim who runs the six-month-old Free Muslim Coalition Against Terrorism.
"The extremist version of Islam encourages violence. We don't need to be teaching that anymore in this diverse world. We need to teach people to get along."
The Islamic Saudi Academy referred inquiries to the Saudi Embassy, which dismissed Mr. Nawash's assertion as an attempt to restart a failed political career.
Embassy spokesman Nail Al-Jubeir compared the textbook to any other religious teaching and said it was "shameful" of Mr. Nawash "to be using this as a source of bigotry."
"They are making a big thing out of nothing," Mr. Al-Jubeir said. "If that's the only thing they have to bring up, how pathetic the argument is. Judaism does not recognize Christ as the Messiah. Christians say the only way to salvation is accepting Christ in your heart."
CAIR spokesman Ibrahim Hooper said the textbook page conflicts with the teachings in the Koran, which says Jews, Christians and all "who believe in God" will "have their reward with their Lord."
"The [page of the] textbook is inaccurate in terms of portraying Islam's relationship with other faiths," Mr. Hooper said. "I would suggest either removing the textbook or inserting a notation that something is being changed in the textbook."...
But Mr. Nawash said he has no intention of running for office again and that his only motive is to stop extremist teaching that he fears will lead to terrorism.
"This is much more important, and it should have been done a long time ago. There is a strong movement of people pushing extremist Islam that tolerates any means, including terrorism, to meet their goals," he said. "It's not a handful, it's a worldwide uprising. ... We're not staying silent anymore."
This is not the first time Mr. Nawash has been under scrutiny.
His law firm once represented Abdul Rahman al-Amoudi, a prominent U.S. Muslim leader who had a role in a Libyan conspiracy to assassinate Saudi Crown Prince Abdullah. Al-Amoudi on Friday pleaded guilty to illegal financial transactions with Libya and admitted his role in the plot.
Al-Amoudi had donated $10,000 to Mr. Nawash's campaign for the state Senate. Mr. Nawash returned the donation.
When asked whether he was friends with al-Amoudi, Mr. Nawash refused to comment.
"I was part of a law firm that represented him," he said. "I can't really comment on that. One of the attorneys in the firm represented him for a short time."
Al-Amoudi's current attorney, Stanley Cohen, said Mr. Nawash's firm has had "nothing to do" with the case for 10 months.
In defending his position, Mr. Hooper cited the teachings of the prophet Muhammad in the Hadiths: "Both in this world and in the Hereafter, I am the nearest of all people to Jesus, the son of Mary. The prophets are paternal brothers; their mothers are different, but their religion is one."
I didn't know Nawash had any connection with Alamoudi. The material on the Free Muslim website is very fine. The group bears watching.
As for CAIR, Hooper's statement is outstandingly disingenuous. Hooper is giving the impression, at least in this article, that Islam teaches that it is one with Christianity as it exists in the world today. But in fact the Jesus to whom he refers as Muhammad's brother is a Muslim construction who is significantly different from the Jesus of Christianity. The one religion they share in the Hadith is Islam, of which, in this view, Christianity is a corruption and heresy. There is nothing in this Hadith, or in the Qur'anic verse Hooper cites above, that is inconsistent with the idea that Christianity is false, as the Saudi textbook teaches. The fact that Hooper doesn't address these issues, but evidently just assumes an audience ignorant of Islam, is questionable at very least.
It is this tendency to go five steps when six are needed, and to persist in leaving important questions unanswered, that makes reasonable people suspicious of CAIR.
UPDATE: Two years ago the Washington Post carried a story about the same school, containing a good deal of illuminating information and raising the question: Why does CAIR only care now? (Thanks to Jo and Al for sending this):
The Saudi Islamic Academy has withdrawn its membership from a respected association of private schools in Virginia and has lost its accreditation with the group after the organization asked questions about how the academy is funded and governed, sources close to the decision said....
Since 1990, the school has touted its accreditation by the Virginia
Association of Independent Schools and the Southern Association of
Colleges and Schools, which accredits more than 12,000 public and
private schools in 11 states and Latin America. The school's Web site
still says it is accredited by both.
But Sally Boese, executive director of the Virginia association, said,
"The Islamic Saudi Academy is no longer a member of VAIS, as they
withdrew their membership from our association effective June 30, 2002."...
The sources also said that some board members were concerned about
aspects of the school's curriculum. The Washington Post in January
reported that some Islamic studies classes at the school use Saudi
Arabian textbooks that promote hatred of other religions. However, the
curricular concerns were not part of the questioning that led to the
withdrawal, sources said.
Posted by Robert at August 2, 2004 7:56 AM
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Comments
(Note: Comments on articles are unmoderated, and do not necessarily reflect the views of Jihad Watch or Robert Spencer. Comments that are off-topic, offensive, slanderous, or otherwise annoying may be summarily deleted. However, the fact that particular comments remain on the site IN NO WAY constitutes an endorsement by Robert Spencer of the views expressed therein.)
One must wonder if these statements by Mr. Hooper are being made due to their lawsuit with Anti-CAIR. One must also realize that too much has been said, done and documented for this portrayed "change of heart" to make a bit of difference at this point.
There should be no Saudi educational facilities permitted on our soil. That's why the mosques are in operation. I'm personally in hopes of the 9/11 Commission report and recommendations making a difference in how we do business with Islam and Muslims.
The public is tired of them. Perhaps a more fitting name for Muslim civil rights groups would be Muslim special treatment groups.
Posted by: DCWatson [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 8:49 AM
One added note: What purpose are these schools serving? The illiteracy rate among Muslims doesn't seem to be improving. Why don't they erect these schools on their own soil and educate the hundreds of millions of Muslims that can't read or write?
Posted by: DCWatson [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 8:55 AM
I recently read that many muslims spend more time reading the hadiths (traditions of Mohammed) of which there are some 24,000 of them, than they do the Quran. At one time there where over 60,000 hadiths that supposedly reflected things that Mohammed said and, or did in his life time.
Posted by: Mackie [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 9:29 AM
Thank you for noting this development. Please visit my weblog Northern Virginiastan for more about ISA, Kamal Nawash, and Abdurahman Alamoudi (AKA Abdul Rahman Al-Almoudi). Northern Virginiastan is a new blog that monitors Islamicists in Northern Virginia and the DC Metro area. I am looking for other people in Northern Virginia and the DC Metro area who would like to partner with me in this effort.
Posted by: northernvirginiastan [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 9:30 AM
Nice blog and much needed. I'll add your link to my own site.
Posted by: Foehammer [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 10:19 AM
its unbelievable to see the amount of islamic activity in the d.c. area!
i'm glad i don't see or hear about them much where i live .
there is a huge revolution going on in this country.
according to yohanan ramati:
you can thank your business tycoon politicians (on the right or left: it doesn't matter) for allowing it to happen.
what are we really doing?
next to nothing practically speaking: just monitoring and waiting to get hit.
even israel with the tight and savvy security can't keep suicide bombers out all of the time.
Posted by: forrestshalom [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 10:53 AM
bach: 'Jesu:Joy of man's desiring'
playing now at di.fm
click on classical
i listen to this station frequently when on my comp.
it is reassuring to know the Lord still has everything under control.
Posted by: forrestshalom [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 11:00 AM
The Jesus of Islam is not the same as the Jesus in which I believe.
I noticed that Hooper also did not mention Jihad, the Caliphate, beheadings, lapidation, or any of the other tenets and practices that we find offensive. Hooper's statements are another example of taqiyya and kitman directed at a gullible and ignorant population and press.
The population is ignorant because the press are not doing their job which is not to accept the Muslim line hook, line, and sinker.
Posted by: epg [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 12:37 PM
Do NOT be fooled by this "ploy" designed to make CAIR appear to be anti-terrorist. This is indeed intended for the attorney's eyes of Andrew Whitehead, Director of ANTI-CAIR.
This is like Hitler having sex with a Jewish blow-up doll. It is a complete farce. CAIR HAS TIES TO TERROR GROUPS. CAIR HAS TIES TO TERROR GROUPS. CAIR HAS TIES TO TERROR GROUPS. Read that over and over again. For it is nothing but the TRUTH.
Hooper & Co. has a long history of ties to terrroism. They go hand in hand.
They will be exposed in due time.
Posted by: uskafir01 [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 2:30 PM
it would be interesting to know who owns america's
media giants.
Posted by: forrestshalom [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 6:02 PM
CAIR is real good at dismantling the Quranic verses and re-assembling them to portrya Islam as tolerant and peaceful. But the truth stands on its own, I almost believed the tripe from CAIR until I researched the Quran and Islam for myself.
Seems the antisemitism in Islam is a learned behaviour pounded into Muslims.Below is a site I found that brought up a search list about JEWS
when I heard the line about Muhammed revering Christ and the Jewish people.
Seems that these peaceful little followers of Muhammed have a reason to want all Jews dead,a question on Muhammeds near death was answered by
blaming it on the Jews trying to poison Muhammeds food.
http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=32762&dgn=3
The site had a long version for the answer so just go there and read it from a Muslim cleric,although CAIR will say he's not a true Muslim.
Posted by: ala-sux [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 3, 2004 12:46 AM
"it would be interesting to know who owns america's
media giants."
Posted by: forrestshalom
Your point being?
Posted by: Whistling Dixie [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 3, 2004 8:20 AM
Two Islamic groups say a private Saudi school in Alexandria is teaching first-graders an extreme version of Islam that fosters contempt for other religions, a charge denied by the Saudi government, which creates curriculum for such schools.
The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), a District-based Islamic civil rights and advocacy group, has joined with the Free Muslim Coalition Against Terrorism in calling for an Arabic textbook to be removed from classes at the Islamic Saudi Academy.
One page in the manual for the first-grade textbook instructs teachers to tell students that any religion other than Islam is false.
"These first-grade students are very impressionable," said Kamal Nawash, a Palestinian and practicing Muslim who runs the six-month-old Free Muslim Coalition Against Terrorism.
"The extremist version of Islam encourages violence. We don't need to be teaching that anymore in this diverse world. We need to teach people to get along."
The Islamic Saudi Academy referred inquiries to the Saudi Embassy, which dismissed Mr. Nawash's assertion as an attempt to restart a failed political career.
Embassy spokesman Nail Al-Jubeir compared the textbook to any other religious teaching and said it was "shameful" of Mr. Nawash "to be using this as a source of bigotry."
"They are making a big thing out of nothing," Mr. Al-Jubeir said. "If that's the only thing they have to bring up, how pathetic the argument is. Judaism does not recognize Christ as the Messiah. Christians say the only way to salvation is accepting Christ in your heart."
CAIR spokesman Ibrahim Hooper said the textbook page conflicts with the teachings in the Koran, which says Jews, Christians and all "who believe in God" will "have their reward with their Lord."
"The [page of the] textbook is inaccurate in terms of portraying Islam's relationship with other faiths," Mr. Hooper said. "I would suggest either removing the textbook or inserting a notation that something is being changed in the textbook."...
But Mr. Nawash said he has no intention of running for office again and that his only motive is to stop extremist teaching that he fears will lead to terrorism.
"This is much more important, and it should have been done a long time ago. There is a strong movement of people pushing extremist Islam that tolerates any means, including terrorism, to meet their goals," he said. "It's not a handful, it's a worldwide uprising. ... We're not staying silent anymore."
This is not the first time Mr. Nawash has been under scrutiny.
His law firm once represented Abdul Rahman al-Amoudi, a prominent U.S. Muslim leader who had a role in a Libyan conspiracy to assassinate Saudi Crown Prince Abdullah. Al-Amoudi on Friday pleaded guilty to illegal financial transactions with Libya and admitted his role in the plot.
Al-Amoudi had donated $10,000 to Mr. Nawash's campaign for the state Senate. Mr. Nawash returned the donation.
When asked whether he was friends with al-Amoudi, Mr. Nawash refused to comment.
"I was part of a law firm that represented him," he said. "I can't really comment on that. One of the attorneys in the firm represented him for a short time."
Al-Amoudi's current attorney, Stanley Cohen, said Mr. Nawash's firm has had "nothing to do" with the case for 10 months.
In defending his position, Mr. Hooper cited the teachings of the prophet Muhammad in the Hadiths: "Both in this world and in the Hereafter, I am the nearest of all people to Jesus, the son of Mary. The prophets are paternal brothers; their mothers are different, but their religion is one."
I didn't know Nawash had any connection with Alamoudi. The material on the Free Muslim website is very fine. The group bears watching.
As for CAIR, Hooper's statement is outstandingly disingenuous. Hooper is giving the impression, at least in this article, that Islam teaches that it is one with Christianity as it exists in the world today. But in fact the Jesus to whom he refers as Muhammad's brother is a Muslim construction who is significantly different from the Jesus of Christianity. The one religion they share in the Hadith is Islam, of which, in this view, Christianity is a corruption and heresy. There is nothing in this Hadith, or in the Qur'anic verse Hooper cites above, that is inconsistent with the idea that Christianity is false, as the Saudi textbook teaches. The fact that Hooper doesn't address these issues, but evidently just assumes an audience ignorant of Islam, is questionable at very least.
It is this tendency to go five steps when six are needed, and to persist in leaving important questions unanswered, that makes reasonable people suspicious of CAIR.
UPDATE: Two years ago the Washington Post carried a story about the same school, containing a good deal of illuminating information and raising the question: Why does CAIR only care now? (Thanks to Jo and Al for sending this):
The Saudi Islamic Academy has withdrawn its membership from a respected association of private schools in Virginia and has lost its accreditation with the group after the organization asked questions about how the academy is funded and governed, sources close to the decision said....
Since 1990, the school has touted its accreditation by the Virginia
Association of Independent Schools and the Southern Association of
Colleges and Schools, which accredits more than 12,000 public and
private schools in 11 states and Latin America. The school's Web site
still says it is accredited by both.
But Sally Boese, executive director of the Virginia association, said,
"The Islamic Saudi Academy is no longer a member of VAIS, as they
withdrew their membership from our association effective June 30, 2002."...
The sources also said that some board members were concerned about
aspects of the school's curriculum. The Washington Post in January
reported that some Islamic studies classes at the school use Saudi
Arabian textbooks that promote hatred of other religions. However, the
curricular concerns were not part of the questioning that led to the
withdrawal, sources said.
Posted by Robert at August 2, 2004 7:56 AM
Print this entry | Email this entry | Digg this | del.icio.us
Comments
(Note: Comments on articles are unmoderated, and do not necessarily reflect the views of Jihad Watch or Robert Spencer. Comments that are off-topic, offensive, slanderous, or otherwise annoying may be summarily deleted. However, the fact that particular comments remain on the site IN NO WAY constitutes an endorsement by Robert Spencer of the views expressed therein.)
One must wonder if these statements by Mr. Hooper are being made due to their lawsuit with Anti-CAIR. One must also realize that too much has been said, done and documented for this portrayed "change of heart" to make a bit of difference at this point.
There should be no Saudi educational facilities permitted on our soil. That's why the mosques are in operation. I'm personally in hopes of the 9/11 Commission report and recommendations making a difference in how we do business with Islam and Muslims.
The public is tired of them. Perhaps a more fitting name for Muslim civil rights groups would be Muslim special treatment groups.
Posted by: DCWatson [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 8:49 AM
One added note: What purpose are these schools serving? The illiteracy rate among Muslims doesn't seem to be improving. Why don't they erect these schools on their own soil and educate the hundreds of millions of Muslims that can't read or write?
Posted by: DCWatson [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 8:55 AM
I recently read that many muslims spend more time reading the hadiths (traditions of Mohammed) of which there are some 24,000 of them, than they do the Quran. At one time there where over 60,000 hadiths that supposedly reflected things that Mohammed said and, or did in his life time.
Posted by: Mackie [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 9:29 AM
Thank you for noting this development. Please visit my weblog Northern Virginiastan for more about ISA, Kamal Nawash, and Abdurahman Alamoudi (AKA Abdul Rahman Al-Almoudi). Northern Virginiastan is a new blog that monitors Islamicists in Northern Virginia and the DC Metro area. I am looking for other people in Northern Virginia and the DC Metro area who would like to partner with me in this effort.
Posted by: northernvirginiastan [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 9:30 AM
Nice blog and much needed. I'll add your link to my own site.
Posted by: Foehammer [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 10:19 AM
its unbelievable to see the amount of islamic activity in the d.c. area!
i'm glad i don't see or hear about them much where i live .
there is a huge revolution going on in this country.
according to yohanan ramati:
you can thank your business tycoon politicians (on the right or left: it doesn't matter) for allowing it to happen.
what are we really doing?
next to nothing practically speaking: just monitoring and waiting to get hit.
even israel with the tight and savvy security can't keep suicide bombers out all of the time.
Posted by: forrestshalom [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 10:53 AM
bach: 'Jesu:Joy of man's desiring'
playing now at di.fm
click on classical
i listen to this station frequently when on my comp.
it is reassuring to know the Lord still has everything under control.
Posted by: forrestshalom [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 11:00 AM
The Jesus of Islam is not the same as the Jesus in which I believe.
I noticed that Hooper also did not mention Jihad, the Caliphate, beheadings, lapidation, or any of the other tenets and practices that we find offensive. Hooper's statements are another example of taqiyya and kitman directed at a gullible and ignorant population and press.
The population is ignorant because the press are not doing their job which is not to accept the Muslim line hook, line, and sinker.
Posted by: epg [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 12:37 PM
Do NOT be fooled by this "ploy" designed to make CAIR appear to be anti-terrorist. This is indeed intended for the attorney's eyes of Andrew Whitehead, Director of ANTI-CAIR.
This is like Hitler having sex with a Jewish blow-up doll. It is a complete farce. CAIR HAS TIES TO TERROR GROUPS. CAIR HAS TIES TO TERROR GROUPS. CAIR HAS TIES TO TERROR GROUPS. Read that over and over again. For it is nothing but the TRUTH.
Hooper & Co. has a long history of ties to terrroism. They go hand in hand.
They will be exposed in due time.
Posted by: uskafir01 [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 2:30 PM
it would be interesting to know who owns america's
media giants.
Posted by: forrestshalom [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 6:02 PM
CAIR is real good at dismantling the Quranic verses and re-assembling them to portrya Islam as tolerant and peaceful. But the truth stands on its own, I almost believed the tripe from CAIR until I researched the Quran and Islam for myself.
Seems the antisemitism in Islam is a learned behaviour pounded into Muslims.Below is a site I found that brought up a search list about JEWS
when I heard the line about Muhammed revering Christ and the Jewish people.
Seems that these peaceful little followers of Muhammed have a reason to want all Jews dead,a question on Muhammeds near death was answered by
blaming it on the Jews trying to poison Muhammeds food.
http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=32762&dgn=3
The site had a long version for the answer so just go there and read it from a Muslim cleric,although CAIR will say he's not a true Muslim.
Posted by: ala-sux [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 3, 2004 12:46 AM
"it would be interesting to know who owns america's
media giants."
Posted by: forrestshalom
Your point being?
Posted by: Whistling Dixie [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 3, 2004 8:20 AM
Video of Bigley's beheading posted on Internet
British hostage makes final plea moments before death
< img src=http://msnbcmedia3.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/041008/041008_bigley_hmed_9a.h2.jpg>
BAGHDAD, Iraq - A videotape of the beheading of British hostage Kenneth Bigley was posted Sunday on the Internet showing the civil engineer making one last plea for help from his government moments before he was killed.
The nearly five-minute tape of Bigley's beheading appeared two days after his family said it had seen proof the 62-year-old civil engineer from Liverpool was dead. The body has not been found.
The tape showed Bigley, dressed in an orange prison-style jump suit, seated in front of seven armed, hooded men. Behind them was the banner of Tawhid and Jihad, lead by Jordanian militant Abu Musab al-Zarqawi.
Bigley made a brief appeal, saying: "I am a simple man who wants to live a simple life." He then addressed British Prime Minister Tony Blair.
"Here I am again, Mr. Blair," Bigley said, "very, very close to the end of my life. You do not appear to have done anything at all to help me."
One of the hooded men then spoke, saying the kidnappers extended the deadline for Bigley's death to allow time for coalition authorities to meet their demand to release women prisoners.
"Because Britain is not serious in releasing our sisters, there is nothing further for this malicious Briton than the sword," he said.
Suddenly the speaker drew a knife from his belt, while three of the others grabbed Bigley. The men shoved Bigley to the floor and cut of his head, which the killer then lifted for viewers to see.
Escape attempt
A U.S. official said Friday there was credible information that Bigley had tried to escape with the aid of one of his captors.
The attempt failed and Bigley was killed a short time later as was shown on a video of his beheading, the Washington official told The Associated Press on condition of anonymity. There was no word on the fate of his captor. A Western official in Baghdad refused to talk about the escape attempt report.
The 62-year-old civil engineer was the first British hostage killed in Iraq and the 28th overall. He was kidnapped three weeks ago, along with two American co-workers. They were beheaded earlier, and grisly footage of their killings was posted on the Internet.
Click for related content
NBC: Liverpool’s will not enough to save Bigley
Other hostages killed within days
Bigley was seized at his Baghdad home Sept. 16 by the most feared terrorist group in Iraq, Tawhid and Jihad, along with Americans Eugene Armstrong, 52, and Jack Hensley, 48. The Americans were beheaded days later.
Abu Dhabi TV refused to broadcast a videotape of Bigley's killing, saying it refused “to serve as a mouthpiece for such groups or their actions.”
U.S. and British officials in Iraq declined to confirm Bigley’s death, saying his body had not been found. However, Bigley’s brother, Phil, said the family had received “absolute proof” of his death.
British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw said Friday that his government had made contact with the kidnappers through an intermediary, but could not persuade them to drop their demands, even though there are no women in British custody in Iraq.
Brother blames Blair
Meanwhile, one of Bigley’s brothers blamed Blair, saying Friday the prime minister has “blood on his hands.”
In a message to organizers of a Stop the War Coalition rally in Liverpool on Friday evening, his older brother Paul said: “Please, please stop this war and prevent other lives being lost. It is illegal and has to stop.”
That stern message contrasted with a statement read on British television by another brother, Phil Bigley. He said the “family believed the government had done all it could “to secure the release of Ken.”
“The horror of these final days will haunt us forever,” he said. “Our only consolation is that Ken is now at peace, away from those who are capable of such atrocities.”
The Bigley kidnapping and his heart-wrenching appeals to Blair reinvigorated the anti-war movement in Britain just as the Americans were acknowledging that Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction no longer existed by the time the war began in March 2003.
Bigley worked for a United Arab Emirates company that provides services for the U.S. military. It was not known when he was beheaded.
More than 150 foreigners have been kidnapped in Iraq, some for ransom and others as leverage against the United States and its allies. Many Iraqis have also been seized, in most cases for money.
Attacks on foreigners, including gruesome beheadings, have crippled reconstruction by discouraging investment and frightening off international engineers, technicians and others.
Turkish hostages reported freed
An Arab TV station said Sunday it received a statement from Iraqi militants saying they had freed 10 Turkish hostages.
An anchor on Qatar-based Al-Jazeera TV, citing “special sources,” said the 10 workers for Turkish construction company VISNAN have been freed.
An Al-Jazeera editor who requested anonymity told The Associated Press the report was based on a statement from the purported kidnappers. The claim could not immediately be verified.
Al-Jazeera broadcast a video Sept. 18 attributed to the Salafist Brigades of Abu Bakr al-Siddiq showing the 10 Turkish hostages in captivity.
The Turkish company said three days later it was freezing operations in hopes of saving the workers.
A Turkish Foreign Ministry spokesman said the Turkish Embassy in Baghdad had no information of any hostages being released.
The Ankara-based VINSAN company also could not confirm the release. An employee said on condition of anonymity that efforts to secure the hostages’ release were continuing “positively.” He did not elaborate.
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BAGHDAD, Iraq - A videotape of the beheading of British hostage Kenneth Bigley was posted Sunday on the Internet showing the civil engineer making one last plea for help from his government moments before he was killed.
The nearly five-minute tape of Bigley's beheading appeared two days after his family said it had seen proof the 62-year-old civil engineer from Liverpool was dead. The body has not been found.
The tape showed Bigley, dressed in an orange prison-style jump suit, seated in front of seven armed, hooded men. Behind them was the banner of Tawhid and Jihad, lead by Jordanian militant Abu Musab al-Zarqawi.
Bigley made a brief appeal, saying: "I am a simple man who wants to live a simple life." He then addressed British Prime Minister Tony Blair.
"Here I am again, Mr. Blair," Bigley said, "very, very close to the end of my life. You do not appear to have done anything at all to help me."
One of the hooded men then spoke, saying the kidnappers extended the deadline for Bigley's death to allow time for coalition authorities to meet their demand to release women prisoners.
"Because Britain is not serious in releasing our sisters, there is nothing further for this malicious Briton than the sword," he said.
Suddenly the speaker drew a knife from his belt, while three of the others grabbed Bigley. The men shoved Bigley to the floor and cut of his head, which the killer then lifted for viewers to see.
Escape attempt
A U.S. official said Friday there was credible information that Bigley had tried to escape with the aid of one of his captors.
The attempt failed and Bigley was killed a short time later as was shown on a video of his beheading, the Washington official told The Associated Press on condition of anonymity. There was no word on the fate of his captor. A Western official in Baghdad refused to talk about the escape attempt report.
The 62-year-old civil engineer was the first British hostage killed in Iraq and the 28th overall. He was kidnapped three weeks ago, along with two American co-workers. They were beheaded earlier, and grisly footage of their killings was posted on the Internet.
Click for related content
NBC: Liverpool’s will not enough to save Bigley
Other hostages killed within days
Bigley was seized at his Baghdad home Sept. 16 by the most feared terrorist group in Iraq, Tawhid and Jihad, along with Americans Eugene Armstrong, 52, and Jack Hensley, 48. The Americans were beheaded days later.
Abu Dhabi TV refused to broadcast a videotape of Bigley's killing, saying it refused “to serve as a mouthpiece for such groups or their actions.”
U.S. and British officials in Iraq declined to confirm Bigley’s death, saying his body had not been found. However, Bigley’s brother, Phil, said the family had received “absolute proof” of his death.
British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw said Friday that his government had made contact with the kidnappers through an intermediary, but could not persuade them to drop their demands, even though there are no women in British custody in Iraq.
Brother blames Blair
Meanwhile, one of Bigley’s brothers blamed Blair, saying Friday the prime minister has “blood on his hands.”
In a message to organizers of a Stop the War Coalition rally in Liverpool on Friday evening, his older brother Paul said: “Please, please stop this war and prevent other lives being lost. It is illegal and has to stop.”
That stern message contrasted with a statement read on British television by another brother, Phil Bigley. He said the “family believed the government had done all it could “to secure the release of Ken.”
“The horror of these final days will haunt us forever,” he said. “Our only consolation is that Ken is now at peace, away from those who are capable of such atrocities.”
The Bigley kidnapping and his heart-wrenching appeals to Blair reinvigorated the anti-war movement in Britain just as the Americans were acknowledging that Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction no longer existed by the time the war began in March 2003.
Bigley worked for a United Arab Emirates company that provides services for the U.S. military. It was not known when he was beheaded.
More than 150 foreigners have been kidnapped in Iraq, some for ransom and others as leverage against the United States and its allies. Many Iraqis have also been seized, in most cases for money.
Attacks on foreigners, including gruesome beheadings, have crippled reconstruction by discouraging investment and frightening off international engineers, technicians and others.
Turkish hostages reported freed
An Arab TV station said Sunday it received a statement from Iraqi militants saying they had freed 10 Turkish hostages.
An anchor on Qatar-based Al-Jazeera TV, citing “special sources,” said the 10 workers for Turkish construction company VISNAN have been freed.
An Al-Jazeera editor who requested anonymity told The Associated Press the report was based on a statement from the purported kidnappers. The claim could not immediately be verified.
Al-Jazeera broadcast a video Sept. 18 attributed to the Salafist Brigades of Abu Bakr al-Siddiq showing the 10 Turkish hostages in captivity.
The Turkish company said three days later it was freezing operations in hopes of saving the workers.
A Turkish Foreign Ministry spokesman said the Turkish Embassy in Baghdad had no information of any hostages being released.
The Ankara-based VINSAN company also could not confirm the release. An employee said on condition of anonymity that efforts to secure the hostages’ release were continuing “positively.” He did not elaborate.
The Murder of Kim Sun-Il
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Another week, another barbaric murder, another victim of Islam's terrorist dogma.
6/22/2004
This video so clearly presents the problem of Islam - what the religion has caused men to do and what it will compel them to do - it is essential that you see it if you want to understand the mindset and motivations of the terrorists who will continue to kill us. (Kim Sung Il beheading). For those who don't wish to confront Islam so head-on, here is my best attempt to describe it:
We have watched the video of the Kim beheading. It is among the most gruesome things we've ever seen. Over a period of several minutes, this young man - a Korean Christian missionary - pleads for mercy. "I want to live," he cries repeatedly. His words are piercing, laden with emotion. Three hooded Muslims standing behind him show no signs of humanity. Armed with guns, a sword, and words, they are corrupted beyond hope. The Islamic camera operator stops the video long enough for his fellow Muslims to gag Kim so that the most dangerous of the Islamic terrorists can justify their sadistic barbarism. The leader of the pack confesses that he is a Muslim serving Muhammad and Allah and that he is perpetrating his savagery in the name of Islam. After denouncing Americans and Jews, one of the Muslims pulls out a sword while the others force Kim onto his face, holding their feet against his back. The sword wielding Muslim proceeds to cut off Kim's head as the thugs with him shout with glee.
Kim's head is held by his hair, blood dripping onto his now severed and mutilated body. And as gruesome as that is, what follows is the most inhuman and ungodly act we've ever witnessed. One of the Muslims chants "Allahu Akbar!" - Allah is Greatest as the men holding Kim's head return the confession - "Allah Akbar!" Swinging Kim's decapitated head before them. They shout "Allah Akbar!" another 14 times. This is followed by an Islamic prayer in the mournful singing voice that is used from their minarets.
The Buddhists do not have an Allah. The Catholics and Protestants don't have an Allah either. Communists and Fascists don't commit crimes claiming "Allah is Greatest." There is but one Allah. He belongs to Islam. Muhammad created him in his own image - that is to say he is as perverse, sadistic, immoral, deceitful, destructive, and demonic as the men who cut off Kim's head. They were all good Muslims, serving Satan and following Muhammad's example. If this conclusion is shocking to you, I invite you to read Prophet of Doom - Islam's Terrorist Dogma in Muhammad's Own Words.
WARNING
The images below are EXTREMELY gruesome and graphic.
Excerpts from Prophet of Doom - Chapter 16 - Mein Kampf:
While there is no message of salvation in Islam, there is an overwhelming need for one. Simply stated: Muhammad was unable to give Muslims a reason to live so he gave them a reason to kill. Ishaq:365 "Ka'b bin Ashraf was from the Jewish clan of Banu Nadir. When he heard the news, he said, ‘Can this be true? Did Muhammad actually kill these people? These were fine men. If Muhammad has slain them, then the belly of the earth is a better place for us than its surface!'" Ka'b understood the danger of mixing false religion, booty, and swords. The future looked ominous. For Muhammad, the only good non-Muslim was a dead one.
Ishaq:365 "When the enemy of Allah became convinced the report was true, he set out for Mecca. He began to arouse people against Muhammad [i.e., he exposed him]. He recited verses in sympathy for the Quraysh men Muhammad had cast into the pit. Ka'b Ashraf composed the following poetic lines: ‘The blood spilled at Badr calls to its people. They cry and weep. The best men were slain and thrown into a pit.'" Poets were the journalists of Muhammad's day. Apart from the Jews, most Arabians were illiterate, so poetry became the most effective means of disseminating a message. The poem Ka'b wrote on this occasion was seven lines long, and there wasn't a violent word among them. Ka'b urged the good people of Yathrib to: Ishaq:365 "Drive off that fool of yours so that you might be safe from talk that makes no sense. Why do you taunt those who mourn over their dead? They lived good lives, and as such we must remember them. But now you have become like jackals." Astute, concise, and accurate.
Tabari VII:94 "Then Ka'b composed poetry about some Muslim women." As we have learned, chivalry had no place in Islam, so this made the prophet angry. If Ka'b had written of lust, pedophilia, and incest, I'm certain Muhammad would have been more understanding.
With these next words, Muhammad ordered his first assassination. While only two men were slain, the nature of his crime has far-reaching implications. Every detail haunts us today. Tabari VII:94 "The Prophet said, ‘Who will rid me of Ashraf.' Muhammad bin Maslamah, said, ‘I will rid you of him, Messenger of Allah. I will kill him.' ‘Do it then.' he said, ‘if you can.'" One of the things that makes Islam lethal is that men are ever ready to kill on the prophet's command.
Ordering the assassination of a journalist for exposing a false prophet, a pirate, and a terrorist, is serious business. Let's check another source to make sure we have this right. Bukhari:V4B52N270 "The Prophet said, ‘Who is ready to kill Ka'b bin Ashraf who has really hurt Allah and His Apostle.' Muhammad bin Maslama said, ‘O Allah's Apostle! Do you want me to kill him.' He replied in the affirmative."
That wasn't any better. Let's see what the earliest source has to say: Ishaq:365 "‘Who will rid me of Ashraf.' Maslama said, ‘I will deal with him for you. O Apostle, I will kill him.' Muhammad said, ‘Do so if you can.'"
Returning to Tabari: Tabari VII:94 "Muhammad bin Maslamah was quiet for three days, neither eating nor drinking more than would keep him alive. The Prophet summoned him and said, ‘Why have you given up food and drink.' ‘O Prophet, I said something and do not know if I can fulfill it.' ‘All that is incumbent on you is to try.' Muhammad replied." This response is chilling when you consider the subject was assassination.
Ishaq:365/Tabari VII:94 "Muhammad bin Maslamah said, ‘O Messenger, we shall have to tell lies.' ‘Say what you like.' Muhammad replied. ‘You are absolved, free to say whatever you must.'" The moment this man walked out of the room, Muhammad must have doubled over laughing. The stooge was willing to commit murder yet he was concerned about lying. And while that's hilarious in a macabre sort of way, consider the value of Muhammad's absolution. Since he had just approved lying, it couldn't have been worth the air it took to offer it. But Muhammad's assassin believed him. And that is why false prophets and corrupt doctrines are so diabolical. Muslim militants still believe him.
While the circumstances are as bizarre as the orders are vile, we do have another first. Islam was the first "religion" to command its faithful to murder and deceive. But since that's a serious charge, let's triple-check our sources. Bukhari:V5B59N369 "Allah's Apostle said, ‘Who is willing to kill Ka'b bin Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle.' Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslamah got up saying, ‘O Allah's Apostle! Would you like me to kill him.' The Prophet said, ‘Yes.' Maslamah said, ‘Then allow me to say false things in order to deceive him.' The Prophet said, ‘You may say such things.'"
Returning to Tabari, we are told that Maslamah "made a plan to kill Ka'b, the enemy of Allah. Before they went to him, they sent Abu ahead. When he arrived, they spoke together for a while. They recited verses to one another, for Abu was something of a poet." Consider the depth of the corruption necessary for a man to lure another to his death by reciting poetry. And as you read on, think of how the Palestinians use their "we are suffering under Israeli oppression" tale of woe to deceive us today, drawing us ever closer to war. Tabari VII:94/Ishaq:367 "Then Abu said, ‘Ka'b, I have come to you about a matter which I want you to keep secret.' ‘Go ahead.' he replied. ‘The arrival of the Prophet Muhammad has been an affliction for us.' Abu said, ‘Most Arabs are now hostile to us. We cannot travel along the roads, and the result is that our families are facing ruin. We are all suffering.' Ka'b replied, ‘I warned you, Abu, that things would turn out like this.' Abu said, ‘I would like you to sell us some food. We will give you some collateral and make a firm contract. Please treat us generously.'" The Arabs who call themselves Palestinians delivered this same message to Bill Clinton during the Oslo negotiations and he gave them the guns they now use to kill Jewish women and children. Bush is following in his footsteps. Lies remain seductive.
Returning to al-Bukhari, we find Maslama having a similar chat with Ka'b. Bukhari:V5B59N369 "Muhammad bin Maslama went to Ka'b and said, ‘The Prophet Muhammad demands payment of the zakat tax from us, and he has brought us nothing but trouble. I have come to borrow something from you.' On that, Ka'b said, ‘I knew you would tire of him.' Maslama said, ‘But since we have followed him, we do not want to leave until we see how all of this is going to turn out.'"
Although, Ka'b Ashraf was but one man, the circumstances surrounding his assassination provide us with an unparalleled window into the Islamic mindset - their means and motives. The deception that is being presented on behalf of Muhammad should be a warning to us today. When Muslim spokespeople deceive our media, they are following their prophet's orders and relying on his absolution.
Excerpts from Prophet of Doom - Prologue:
Muhammad became so afraid of being exposed, he ordered his followers to assassinate anyone who criticized him. The first was a poet named Ashraf. In an illiterate society, poets were the journalists of their day. Their words swayed public opinion. Ashraf recognized that pirate and prophet were divergent career paths, and he had the courage to say so. This Hadith is from Bukhari's Collection, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 270: Bukhari:V4B52N270 "Allah's Messenger said, ‘Who is ready to kill Ashraf? He has said injurious things about Allah and His Apostle.' Maslama got up saying, ‘Would you like me to kill him?' The Prophet proclaimed, ‘Yes.' Maslama said, ‘Then allow me to lie so that I will be able to deceive him.' Muhammad said, ‘You may do so.'" Islam gives Muslims a license to lie and kill.
We pick up the story on page 94 of the History of al-Tabari, Volume VII. My shorthand for this passage is: Tabari VII:94. "Ashraf suspected no evil when Maslama cried, ‘Smite the enemy of Allah!' So they smote him, and their swords clashed over him. Maslama said, ‘I remembered my dagger and I seized it. I thrust it into the lower part of his body. I bore down upon it until I reached his genitals. Allah's enemy fell to the ground.'"
Ishaq revealed this in the Sira, or biography, of Muhammad: Ishaq:368 "We carried his head back to Muhammad during the night, saluted the Prophet as he stood praying, and cast Ashraf's head before his feet. The Prophet praised Allah that the poet had been slain, and complimented us on the good work we had done in Allah's Cause. Our attack upon Allah's enemy cast terror among the Jews, and there was no Jew in Medina who did not fear for his life.'" Murder and terror are Islam's "good works."
Ishaq:368 "Ashraf's body was left prostrate. After his fall, all of the Jews were brought low. Sword in hand we cut him down. By Muhammad's order we were sent secretly to his home by night. Brother killing brother. We lured him to his demise with deviousness. We made him taste death with our deadly swords. We sought victory for the religion of the Prophet." Tabari VII:97 "The morning after the murder of Ashraf, the Prophet declared, ‘Kill any Jew who falls under your power.'"
Ishaq:369 "Thereupon Mas'ud leapt upon Sunayna, one of the Jewish merchants with whom his family had social and commercial relations and killed him. The Muslim's brother complained, saying, ‘Why did you kill him? You have much fat in you belly from his charity.' Mas'ud answered, ‘By Allah, had Muhammad ordered me to murder you, my brother, I would have cut off your head.' Wherein the brother said, ‘Any religion that can bring you to this is indeed wonderful!'"
This man was crediting the religion of Islam for transforming his brother into an unthinking killing machine. The motivation was purely racist: Bukhari:V1B1N6 "Just issue orders to kill every Jew in the country." Innocent blood still dripping from his hands, Mas'ud proclaimed for all the world to hear: "Muhammad ordered me to murder." Today's terrorists haven't corrupted their religion; their religion has corrupted them.
While hideous, this act does not stand alone. Soon thereafter, Muhammad ordered Muslims to assassinate Sallam. Tabari, Islam's earliest historian, explains: Tabari VII:101 "They asked the Prophet for permission to kill Sallam. He granted it." Tabari VII:99 "When they got to Khaybar they went to Sallam's house by night, having locked every door in the settlement on the inhabitants. He was in an upper chamber. His wife came out and asked who we were. We told her that we were Arabs in search of supplies. She told us that her husband was in bed. We entered and bolted his door. His wife shrieked and warned him of us, so we ran at him with our swords as he lay on his bed. When we had smitten him Abdallah bore down his sword into his belly until it went right through him. ‘By the God of the Jews, he is dead!' Never have I heard sweeter words than those. We returned to Allah's Apostle and told him that we had killed his enemy. We disputed before him as to who had killed him, each of us laying claim to the deed. Muhammad demanded to see our swords and when he looked at them he said, ‘It is the sword of Abdallah that killed him; I can see traces of food on it.'" Deceiving victims is still standard operating procedure for Muslim militants. Attacking defenseless civilians is the very definition of terror. And so is gloating. Today's Islamic terrorists are as eager as Muhammad's original henchmen to claim "credit" for their deeds.
Ishaq's Sira recounts a third Muhammad-inspired execution: Ishaq: 308 "Halfway to Medina, Ocba was called out to be executed." Since the other prisoners were being held for ransom, Ocba asked Muhammad why he was being treated more harshly than the other captives. "The Prophet said, ‘Because of your enmity to Allah and to his Prophet.' ‘And my little girl,' cried Ocba in bitterness, ‘who will take care of her?' ‘Hell Fire,' Muhammad responded. At that moment he was decapitated. ‘Wretch that you were, [Muhammad eulogized] you scoffed at me and claimed that your stories were better than mine. I give thanks that Allah has slain you and comforted me.'" Allah condoned the murder in the 8th surah of the Qur'an, the 68th verse: Qur'an 8:68 "It has not been for any prophet to take captives until he has slaughtered in the land."
Allah approved kidnapping for ransom so long as his prophet slaughtered first. Ocba said something Muslims didn't like, so they murdered him. No wonder authors, journalists, and politicians are afraid to critique Islam.
Looking to rob a Jewish community for a second time, Muhammad had one of his militants torture an innocent man. The tale is recounted by Ishaq and Tabari. Tabari VIII:122/Ishaq:515 "The Prophet gave orders concerning Kinanah to Zubayr, saying, ‘Torture him until you root out and extract what he has. So Zubayr kindled a fire on Kinanah's chest, twirling it with his firestick until Kinanah was near death. Then the Messenger gave him to Maslamah, who beheaded him." Bukhari:V4B54N487 "The Prophet said, ‘The Hell Fire is 69 times hotter than ordinary worldly fires.' So someone said, ‘Allah's Apostle, wouldn't this ordinary fire have been sufficient to torture non-Muslims?'"
You will soon discover that the Nazi fuhrer and the Islamic prophet had more in common than just using fire to eradicate Jews. Beginning in the "Mein Kampf" chapter I will compare Hitler's Manifesto with Muhammad's so that you might know how stunningly similar they are. By so doing, you'll come to appreciate the consequence of tolerating Islam.
The Sacred Muslim Practice of Beheading
By Andrew G. Bostom
FrontPageMagazine.com | May 13, 2004
Reactions to the grotesque jihadist decapitation of yet another "infidel Jew," Mr. Berg, make clear that our intelligentsia are either dangerously uninformed, or simply unwilling to come to terms with this ugly reality: such murders are consistent with sacred jihad practices, as well as Islamic attitudes towards all non-Muslim infidels, in particular, Jews, which date back to the 7th century, and the Prophet Muhammad's own example.
According to Muhammad's sacralized biography by Ibn Ishaq, Muhammad himself sanctioned the massacre of the Qurayza, a vanquished Jewish tribe. He appointed an "arbiter" who soon rendered this concise verdict: the men were to be put to death, the women and children sold into slavery, the spoils to be divided among the Muslims. Muhammad ratified this judgment stating that it was a decree of God pronounced from above the Seven Heavens. Thus some 600 to 900 men from the Qurayza were lead on Muhammad's order to the Market of Medina. Trenches were dug and the men were beheaded, and their decapitated corpses buried in the trenches while Muhammad watched in attendance. Women and children were sold into slavery, a number of them being distributed as gifts among Muhammad's companions, and Muhammad chose one of the Qurayza women (Rayhana) for himself. The Qurayza's property and other possessions (including weapons) were also divided up as additional "booty" among the Muslims, to support further jihad campaigns.
The classical Muslim jurist al-Mawardi (a Shafi'ite jurist, d. 1058) from Baghdad was a seminal, prolific scholar who lived during the so-called Islamic "Golden Age" of the Abbasid-Baghdadian Caliphate. He wrote the following, based on widely accepted interpretations of the Qur'an and Sunna (i.e., the recorded words and deeds of Muhammad), regarding infidel prisoners of jihad campaigns:
"As for the captives, the amir [ruler] has the choice of taking the most beneficial action of four possibilities: the first to put them to death by cutting their necks; the second, to enslave them and apply the laws of slavery regarding their sale and manumission; the third, to ransom them in exchange for goods or prisoners; and fourth, to show favor to them and pardon them. Allah, may he be exalted, says, 'When you encounter those [infidels] who deny [the Truth=Islam] then strike [their] necks' (Qur'an sura 47, verse 4)"....Abu'l-Hasan al-Mawardi, al-Ahkam as-Sultaniyyah." [The Laws of Islamic Governance, trans. by Dr. Asadullah Yate, (London), Ta-Ha Publishers Ltd., 1996, p. 192. Emphasis added.]
Indeed such odious "rules" were iterated by all four classical schools of Islamic jurisprudence, across the vast Muslim empire.
For centuries, from the Iberian peninsula to the Indian subcontinent, jihad campaigns waged by Muslim armies against infidel Jews, Christians, Zoroastrians, Buddhists and Hindus, were punctuated by massacres, including mass throat slittings and beheadings. During the period of "enlightened" Muslim rule, the Christians of Iberian Toledo, who had first submitted to their Arab Muslim invaders in 711 or 712, revolted in 713. In the harsh Muslim reprisal that ensued, Toledo was pillaged, and all the Christian notables had their throats cut. On the Indian subcontinent, Babur (1483-1530), the founder of the Mughal Empire, who is revered as a paragon of Muslim tolerance by modern revisionist historians, recorded the following in his autobiographical "Baburnama," about infidel prisoners of a jihad campaign:
"Those who were brought in alive [having surrendered] were ordered beheaded, after which a tower of skulls was erected in the camp." [The Baburnama -Memoirs of Babur, Prince and Emperor, translated and edited by Wheeler M. Thacktson, Oxford University Press,1996, p. 188. Emphasis added.]
Recent jihad-inspired decapitations of infidels by Muslims have occurred across the globe- Christians in Indonesia, the Philippines, and Nigeria; Hindu priests and "unveiled" Hindu women in Kashmir; Wall Street Journal reporter, and Jew, Daniel Pearl. We should not be surprised that these contemporary paroxysms of jihad violence are accompanied by ritualized beheadings. Such gruesome acts are in fact sanctioned by core Islamic sacred texts, and classical Muslim jurisprudence. Empty claims that jihad decapitations are somehow "alien to true Islam," however well-intentioned, undermine serious efforts to reform and desacralize Islamic doctrine. This process will only begin with frank discussion, both between non-Muslims and Muslims, and within the Muslim community. [Link to article]
Footnote: Shortly after posting this article to POD.net, we discovered an item on a South Korean news site: "Muslim Community Hopes Killing Doesn't Affect Perception of Islam." Since there is but one Islam, there can only be one perception of it; a singular correct view of Muhammad, his religion, and his god -- the one found in the Qur'an and Hadith. Most rational men and women will conclude that Muhammad was a pirate, not a prophet, and that a god who is principally vengeful, forgetful, contradictory, and irrational might not be a god after all. It is the only rational conclusion that can be drawn. Islam condemns Islam sufficiently to persuade even the most ardent skeptic. False perceptions notwithstanding.
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Another week, another barbaric murder, another victim of Islam's terrorist dogma.
6/22/2004
This video so clearly presents the problem of Islam - what the religion has caused men to do and what it will compel them to do - it is essential that you see it if you want to understand the mindset and motivations of the terrorists who will continue to kill us. (Kim Sung Il beheading). For those who don't wish to confront Islam so head-on, here is my best attempt to describe it:
We have watched the video of the Kim beheading. It is among the most gruesome things we've ever seen. Over a period of several minutes, this young man - a Korean Christian missionary - pleads for mercy. "I want to live," he cries repeatedly. His words are piercing, laden with emotion. Three hooded Muslims standing behind him show no signs of humanity. Armed with guns, a sword, and words, they are corrupted beyond hope. The Islamic camera operator stops the video long enough for his fellow Muslims to gag Kim so that the most dangerous of the Islamic terrorists can justify their sadistic barbarism. The leader of the pack confesses that he is a Muslim serving Muhammad and Allah and that he is perpetrating his savagery in the name of Islam. After denouncing Americans and Jews, one of the Muslims pulls out a sword while the others force Kim onto his face, holding their feet against his back. The sword wielding Muslim proceeds to cut off Kim's head as the thugs with him shout with glee.
Kim's head is held by his hair, blood dripping onto his now severed and mutilated body. And as gruesome as that is, what follows is the most inhuman and ungodly act we've ever witnessed. One of the Muslims chants "Allahu Akbar!" - Allah is Greatest as the men holding Kim's head return the confession - "Allah Akbar!" Swinging Kim's decapitated head before them. They shout "Allah Akbar!" another 14 times. This is followed by an Islamic prayer in the mournful singing voice that is used from their minarets.
The Buddhists do not have an Allah. The Catholics and Protestants don't have an Allah either. Communists and Fascists don't commit crimes claiming "Allah is Greatest." There is but one Allah. He belongs to Islam. Muhammad created him in his own image - that is to say he is as perverse, sadistic, immoral, deceitful, destructive, and demonic as the men who cut off Kim's head. They were all good Muslims, serving Satan and following Muhammad's example. If this conclusion is shocking to you, I invite you to read Prophet of Doom - Islam's Terrorist Dogma in Muhammad's Own Words.
WARNING
The images below are EXTREMELY gruesome and graphic.
Excerpts from Prophet of Doom - Chapter 16 - Mein Kampf:
While there is no message of salvation in Islam, there is an overwhelming need for one. Simply stated: Muhammad was unable to give Muslims a reason to live so he gave them a reason to kill. Ishaq:365 "Ka'b bin Ashraf was from the Jewish clan of Banu Nadir. When he heard the news, he said, ‘Can this be true? Did Muhammad actually kill these people? These were fine men. If Muhammad has slain them, then the belly of the earth is a better place for us than its surface!'" Ka'b understood the danger of mixing false religion, booty, and swords. The future looked ominous. For Muhammad, the only good non-Muslim was a dead one.
Ishaq:365 "When the enemy of Allah became convinced the report was true, he set out for Mecca. He began to arouse people against Muhammad [i.e., he exposed him]. He recited verses in sympathy for the Quraysh men Muhammad had cast into the pit. Ka'b Ashraf composed the following poetic lines: ‘The blood spilled at Badr calls to its people. They cry and weep. The best men were slain and thrown into a pit.'" Poets were the journalists of Muhammad's day. Apart from the Jews, most Arabians were illiterate, so poetry became the most effective means of disseminating a message. The poem Ka'b wrote on this occasion was seven lines long, and there wasn't a violent word among them. Ka'b urged the good people of Yathrib to: Ishaq:365 "Drive off that fool of yours so that you might be safe from talk that makes no sense. Why do you taunt those who mourn over their dead? They lived good lives, and as such we must remember them. But now you have become like jackals." Astute, concise, and accurate.
Tabari VII:94 "Then Ka'b composed poetry about some Muslim women." As we have learned, chivalry had no place in Islam, so this made the prophet angry. If Ka'b had written of lust, pedophilia, and incest, I'm certain Muhammad would have been more understanding.
With these next words, Muhammad ordered his first assassination. While only two men were slain, the nature of his crime has far-reaching implications. Every detail haunts us today. Tabari VII:94 "The Prophet said, ‘Who will rid me of Ashraf.' Muhammad bin Maslamah, said, ‘I will rid you of him, Messenger of Allah. I will kill him.' ‘Do it then.' he said, ‘if you can.'" One of the things that makes Islam lethal is that men are ever ready to kill on the prophet's command.
Ordering the assassination of a journalist for exposing a false prophet, a pirate, and a terrorist, is serious business. Let's check another source to make sure we have this right. Bukhari:V4B52N270 "The Prophet said, ‘Who is ready to kill Ka'b bin Ashraf who has really hurt Allah and His Apostle.' Muhammad bin Maslama said, ‘O Allah's Apostle! Do you want me to kill him.' He replied in the affirmative."
That wasn't any better. Let's see what the earliest source has to say: Ishaq:365 "‘Who will rid me of Ashraf.' Maslama said, ‘I will deal with him for you. O Apostle, I will kill him.' Muhammad said, ‘Do so if you can.'"
Returning to Tabari: Tabari VII:94 "Muhammad bin Maslamah was quiet for three days, neither eating nor drinking more than would keep him alive. The Prophet summoned him and said, ‘Why have you given up food and drink.' ‘O Prophet, I said something and do not know if I can fulfill it.' ‘All that is incumbent on you is to try.' Muhammad replied." This response is chilling when you consider the subject was assassination.
Ishaq:365/Tabari VII:94 "Muhammad bin Maslamah said, ‘O Messenger, we shall have to tell lies.' ‘Say what you like.' Muhammad replied. ‘You are absolved, free to say whatever you must.'" The moment this man walked out of the room, Muhammad must have doubled over laughing. The stooge was willing to commit murder yet he was concerned about lying. And while that's hilarious in a macabre sort of way, consider the value of Muhammad's absolution. Since he had just approved lying, it couldn't have been worth the air it took to offer it. But Muhammad's assassin believed him. And that is why false prophets and corrupt doctrines are so diabolical. Muslim militants still believe him.
While the circumstances are as bizarre as the orders are vile, we do have another first. Islam was the first "religion" to command its faithful to murder and deceive. But since that's a serious charge, let's triple-check our sources. Bukhari:V5B59N369 "Allah's Apostle said, ‘Who is willing to kill Ka'b bin Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle.' Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslamah got up saying, ‘O Allah's Apostle! Would you like me to kill him.' The Prophet said, ‘Yes.' Maslamah said, ‘Then allow me to say false things in order to deceive him.' The Prophet said, ‘You may say such things.'"
Returning to Tabari, we are told that Maslamah "made a plan to kill Ka'b, the enemy of Allah. Before they went to him, they sent Abu ahead. When he arrived, they spoke together for a while. They recited verses to one another, for Abu was something of a poet." Consider the depth of the corruption necessary for a man to lure another to his death by reciting poetry. And as you read on, think of how the Palestinians use their "we are suffering under Israeli oppression" tale of woe to deceive us today, drawing us ever closer to war. Tabari VII:94/Ishaq:367 "Then Abu said, ‘Ka'b, I have come to you about a matter which I want you to keep secret.' ‘Go ahead.' he replied. ‘The arrival of the Prophet Muhammad has been an affliction for us.' Abu said, ‘Most Arabs are now hostile to us. We cannot travel along the roads, and the result is that our families are facing ruin. We are all suffering.' Ka'b replied, ‘I warned you, Abu, that things would turn out like this.' Abu said, ‘I would like you to sell us some food. We will give you some collateral and make a firm contract. Please treat us generously.'" The Arabs who call themselves Palestinians delivered this same message to Bill Clinton during the Oslo negotiations and he gave them the guns they now use to kill Jewish women and children. Bush is following in his footsteps. Lies remain seductive.
Returning to al-Bukhari, we find Maslama having a similar chat with Ka'b. Bukhari:V5B59N369 "Muhammad bin Maslama went to Ka'b and said, ‘The Prophet Muhammad demands payment of the zakat tax from us, and he has brought us nothing but trouble. I have come to borrow something from you.' On that, Ka'b said, ‘I knew you would tire of him.' Maslama said, ‘But since we have followed him, we do not want to leave until we see how all of this is going to turn out.'"
Although, Ka'b Ashraf was but one man, the circumstances surrounding his assassination provide us with an unparalleled window into the Islamic mindset - their means and motives. The deception that is being presented on behalf of Muhammad should be a warning to us today. When Muslim spokespeople deceive our media, they are following their prophet's orders and relying on his absolution.
Excerpts from Prophet of Doom - Prologue:
Muhammad became so afraid of being exposed, he ordered his followers to assassinate anyone who criticized him. The first was a poet named Ashraf. In an illiterate society, poets were the journalists of their day. Their words swayed public opinion. Ashraf recognized that pirate and prophet were divergent career paths, and he had the courage to say so. This Hadith is from Bukhari's Collection, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 270: Bukhari:V4B52N270 "Allah's Messenger said, ‘Who is ready to kill Ashraf? He has said injurious things about Allah and His Apostle.' Maslama got up saying, ‘Would you like me to kill him?' The Prophet proclaimed, ‘Yes.' Maslama said, ‘Then allow me to lie so that I will be able to deceive him.' Muhammad said, ‘You may do so.'" Islam gives Muslims a license to lie and kill.
We pick up the story on page 94 of the History of al-Tabari, Volume VII. My shorthand for this passage is: Tabari VII:94. "Ashraf suspected no evil when Maslama cried, ‘Smite the enemy of Allah!' So they smote him, and their swords clashed over him. Maslama said, ‘I remembered my dagger and I seized it. I thrust it into the lower part of his body. I bore down upon it until I reached his genitals. Allah's enemy fell to the ground.'"
Ishaq revealed this in the Sira, or biography, of Muhammad: Ishaq:368 "We carried his head back to Muhammad during the night, saluted the Prophet as he stood praying, and cast Ashraf's head before his feet. The Prophet praised Allah that the poet had been slain, and complimented us on the good work we had done in Allah's Cause. Our attack upon Allah's enemy cast terror among the Jews, and there was no Jew in Medina who did not fear for his life.'" Murder and terror are Islam's "good works."
Ishaq:368 "Ashraf's body was left prostrate. After his fall, all of the Jews were brought low. Sword in hand we cut him down. By Muhammad's order we were sent secretly to his home by night. Brother killing brother. We lured him to his demise with deviousness. We made him taste death with our deadly swords. We sought victory for the religion of the Prophet." Tabari VII:97 "The morning after the murder of Ashraf, the Prophet declared, ‘Kill any Jew who falls under your power.'"
Ishaq:369 "Thereupon Mas'ud leapt upon Sunayna, one of the Jewish merchants with whom his family had social and commercial relations and killed him. The Muslim's brother complained, saying, ‘Why did you kill him? You have much fat in you belly from his charity.' Mas'ud answered, ‘By Allah, had Muhammad ordered me to murder you, my brother, I would have cut off your head.' Wherein the brother said, ‘Any religion that can bring you to this is indeed wonderful!'"
This man was crediting the religion of Islam for transforming his brother into an unthinking killing machine. The motivation was purely racist: Bukhari:V1B1N6 "Just issue orders to kill every Jew in the country." Innocent blood still dripping from his hands, Mas'ud proclaimed for all the world to hear: "Muhammad ordered me to murder." Today's terrorists haven't corrupted their religion; their religion has corrupted them.
While hideous, this act does not stand alone. Soon thereafter, Muhammad ordered Muslims to assassinate Sallam. Tabari, Islam's earliest historian, explains: Tabari VII:101 "They asked the Prophet for permission to kill Sallam. He granted it." Tabari VII:99 "When they got to Khaybar they went to Sallam's house by night, having locked every door in the settlement on the inhabitants. He was in an upper chamber. His wife came out and asked who we were. We told her that we were Arabs in search of supplies. She told us that her husband was in bed. We entered and bolted his door. His wife shrieked and warned him of us, so we ran at him with our swords as he lay on his bed. When we had smitten him Abdallah bore down his sword into his belly until it went right through him. ‘By the God of the Jews, he is dead!' Never have I heard sweeter words than those. We returned to Allah's Apostle and told him that we had killed his enemy. We disputed before him as to who had killed him, each of us laying claim to the deed. Muhammad demanded to see our swords and when he looked at them he said, ‘It is the sword of Abdallah that killed him; I can see traces of food on it.'" Deceiving victims is still standard operating procedure for Muslim militants. Attacking defenseless civilians is the very definition of terror. And so is gloating. Today's Islamic terrorists are as eager as Muhammad's original henchmen to claim "credit" for their deeds.
Ishaq's Sira recounts a third Muhammad-inspired execution: Ishaq: 308 "Halfway to Medina, Ocba was called out to be executed." Since the other prisoners were being held for ransom, Ocba asked Muhammad why he was being treated more harshly than the other captives. "The Prophet said, ‘Because of your enmity to Allah and to his Prophet.' ‘And my little girl,' cried Ocba in bitterness, ‘who will take care of her?' ‘Hell Fire,' Muhammad responded. At that moment he was decapitated. ‘Wretch that you were, [Muhammad eulogized] you scoffed at me and claimed that your stories were better than mine. I give thanks that Allah has slain you and comforted me.'" Allah condoned the murder in the 8th surah of the Qur'an, the 68th verse: Qur'an 8:68 "It has not been for any prophet to take captives until he has slaughtered in the land."
Allah approved kidnapping for ransom so long as his prophet slaughtered first. Ocba said something Muslims didn't like, so they murdered him. No wonder authors, journalists, and politicians are afraid to critique Islam.
Looking to rob a Jewish community for a second time, Muhammad had one of his militants torture an innocent man. The tale is recounted by Ishaq and Tabari. Tabari VIII:122/Ishaq:515 "The Prophet gave orders concerning Kinanah to Zubayr, saying, ‘Torture him until you root out and extract what he has. So Zubayr kindled a fire on Kinanah's chest, twirling it with his firestick until Kinanah was near death. Then the Messenger gave him to Maslamah, who beheaded him." Bukhari:V4B54N487 "The Prophet said, ‘The Hell Fire is 69 times hotter than ordinary worldly fires.' So someone said, ‘Allah's Apostle, wouldn't this ordinary fire have been sufficient to torture non-Muslims?'"
You will soon discover that the Nazi fuhrer and the Islamic prophet had more in common than just using fire to eradicate Jews. Beginning in the "Mein Kampf" chapter I will compare Hitler's Manifesto with Muhammad's so that you might know how stunningly similar they are. By so doing, you'll come to appreciate the consequence of tolerating Islam.
The Sacred Muslim Practice of Beheading
By Andrew G. Bostom
FrontPageMagazine.com | May 13, 2004
Reactions to the grotesque jihadist decapitation of yet another "infidel Jew," Mr. Berg, make clear that our intelligentsia are either dangerously uninformed, or simply unwilling to come to terms with this ugly reality: such murders are consistent with sacred jihad practices, as well as Islamic attitudes towards all non-Muslim infidels, in particular, Jews, which date back to the 7th century, and the Prophet Muhammad's own example.
According to Muhammad's sacralized biography by Ibn Ishaq, Muhammad himself sanctioned the massacre of the Qurayza, a vanquished Jewish tribe. He appointed an "arbiter" who soon rendered this concise verdict: the men were to be put to death, the women and children sold into slavery, the spoils to be divided among the Muslims. Muhammad ratified this judgment stating that it was a decree of God pronounced from above the Seven Heavens. Thus some 600 to 900 men from the Qurayza were lead on Muhammad's order to the Market of Medina. Trenches were dug and the men were beheaded, and their decapitated corpses buried in the trenches while Muhammad watched in attendance. Women and children were sold into slavery, a number of them being distributed as gifts among Muhammad's companions, and Muhammad chose one of the Qurayza women (Rayhana) for himself. The Qurayza's property and other possessions (including weapons) were also divided up as additional "booty" among the Muslims, to support further jihad campaigns.
The classical Muslim jurist al-Mawardi (a Shafi'ite jurist, d. 1058) from Baghdad was a seminal, prolific scholar who lived during the so-called Islamic "Golden Age" of the Abbasid-Baghdadian Caliphate. He wrote the following, based on widely accepted interpretations of the Qur'an and Sunna (i.e., the recorded words and deeds of Muhammad), regarding infidel prisoners of jihad campaigns:
"As for the captives, the amir [ruler] has the choice of taking the most beneficial action of four possibilities: the first to put them to death by cutting their necks; the second, to enslave them and apply the laws of slavery regarding their sale and manumission; the third, to ransom them in exchange for goods or prisoners; and fourth, to show favor to them and pardon them. Allah, may he be exalted, says, 'When you encounter those [infidels] who deny [the Truth=Islam] then strike [their] necks' (Qur'an sura 47, verse 4)"....Abu'l-Hasan al-Mawardi, al-Ahkam as-Sultaniyyah." [The Laws of Islamic Governance, trans. by Dr. Asadullah Yate, (London), Ta-Ha Publishers Ltd., 1996, p. 192. Emphasis added.]
Indeed such odious "rules" were iterated by all four classical schools of Islamic jurisprudence, across the vast Muslim empire.
For centuries, from the Iberian peninsula to the Indian subcontinent, jihad campaigns waged by Muslim armies against infidel Jews, Christians, Zoroastrians, Buddhists and Hindus, were punctuated by massacres, including mass throat slittings and beheadings. During the period of "enlightened" Muslim rule, the Christians of Iberian Toledo, who had first submitted to their Arab Muslim invaders in 711 or 712, revolted in 713. In the harsh Muslim reprisal that ensued, Toledo was pillaged, and all the Christian notables had their throats cut. On the Indian subcontinent, Babur (1483-1530), the founder of the Mughal Empire, who is revered as a paragon of Muslim tolerance by modern revisionist historians, recorded the following in his autobiographical "Baburnama," about infidel prisoners of a jihad campaign:
"Those who were brought in alive [having surrendered] were ordered beheaded, after which a tower of skulls was erected in the camp." [The Baburnama -Memoirs of Babur, Prince and Emperor, translated and edited by Wheeler M. Thacktson, Oxford University Press,1996, p. 188. Emphasis added.]
Recent jihad-inspired decapitations of infidels by Muslims have occurred across the globe- Christians in Indonesia, the Philippines, and Nigeria; Hindu priests and "unveiled" Hindu women in Kashmir; Wall Street Journal reporter, and Jew, Daniel Pearl. We should not be surprised that these contemporary paroxysms of jihad violence are accompanied by ritualized beheadings. Such gruesome acts are in fact sanctioned by core Islamic sacred texts, and classical Muslim jurisprudence. Empty claims that jihad decapitations are somehow "alien to true Islam," however well-intentioned, undermine serious efforts to reform and desacralize Islamic doctrine. This process will only begin with frank discussion, both between non-Muslims and Muslims, and within the Muslim community. [Link to article]
Footnote: Shortly after posting this article to POD.net, we discovered an item on a South Korean news site: "Muslim Community Hopes Killing Doesn't Affect Perception of Islam." Since there is but one Islam, there can only be one perception of it; a singular correct view of Muhammad, his religion, and his god -- the one found in the Qur'an and Hadith. Most rational men and women will conclude that Muhammad was a pirate, not a prophet, and that a god who is principally vengeful, forgetful, contradictory, and irrational might not be a god after all. It is the only rational conclusion that can be drawn. Islam condemns Islam sufficiently to persuade even the most ardent skeptic. False perceptions notwithstanding.
LAGI2 BUKTI BAHWA ISLAM MENYEBARKAN AGAMA LEWAT PEDANG.
LAGI2 BUKTI BAHWA ISLAM MENYEBARKAN AGAMA LEWAT PEDANG.
Islam mengajarkan bahwa Muslim harus mengundang semua orang memeluk Islam atau paling tidak tunduk pada dakwahnya. Jika non-muslim menolak, Muslim harus menyatakan perang/jihad.
Kata Muhammad (sad ardent wanker):
Berperanglah dalam nama Allah dan di jalan Allah. Perangi mereka yg tidak percaya Allah. Jalankan perang suci . . . Jika kau bertemu musuhmu yg musyrikun, undang mereka utk mengambil satu dari tiga pilihan. Jika mereka menanggapi dan kau menerimanya, tahan dirimu dari tindakan melukai mereka. Undang mereka (utk menerima) Islam; jika mereka menanggapi, terima dari mereka dan jangan memerangi mereka . . . Jika mereka menolak utk menerima Islam, tuntut dari mereka (pajak) Jizyah. Jika mereka setuju utk membayar, terimalah dan tahanlah tanganmu. Jika mereka menolak membayar Jizyah, mintalah pertolongan Allah dan PERANGI MEREKA ! (Sahih Muslim, book 19, no. 4294).
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/01/24/wsaint 24.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/01/24/ixworld.html
By Daniel McLaughlin in Kurilovo
(Filed: 24/01/2004)
Pada ulang tahun ke19-nya, teroris Chechen menjemput Yevgeny Rodionov dari selnya dan memberikannya pilihan utk masuk Islam. Ia menolak dan … MEREKA MEMENGGAL KEPALANYA.
Bagi pengikut agama Orthodox Rusia, tentara muda ini adalah martir. Kini ia diperingatkan sbg Santo Yevgeny. Foto2nya diabadikan pada ikon2 Rusia. Mereka menyajikan doa2 baginya dan gambarnya pada ikon dianggap membawa mukjizat.
"Saya bangga dgn putera saya, ia menghadapi maut dgn mata terbuka dan teguh pada agamanya," kata ibunya, Lyubov, sambil menunjukkan salib perak kecil berlumuran darah kering di tangannya (milik Yevgeny). "Tapi masalah ia Santo atau tidak – itu saya serahkan pada Tuhan."
Ny Rodionova menemukan salib itu di Chechnya, kawasan yg tercabik2 karena perang melawan Muslim yg ingin pisah dari Rusia, mendirikan negara Syariah tersendiri, tempat Yevgeny dikirim pada usia 18 dan mati setahun kemudian.
Ibunyalah yg menemukan sisa2 tubuh puteranya dan menggali tulang2nya dari sebuah kuburan dangkal dgn tangan telanjangnya. Salib itu menjadi tanda pengenalnya.
--------------------------------------------
See also :
http://www.rusnet.nl/news/2003/11/21/report07.shtml
The First Saint of the Chechen War
http://www.cdi.org/russia/johnson/8396-3.cfm
Lyubov Rodionov holding two portraits of her son Yevgeny - a primary school photograph and an unauthorized icon. Mrs. Rodionov says Muslim rebels killed him because he refused to renounce his religion
Heidi Bradner / The New York Times
An icon of Yevgeny Rodionov next to one of the Virgin Mary in a church near St. Petersburg
Heidi Bradner / The New York Times
_________________
Saya bersumpah akan kembali ke Islam jika ada Muslim di situs ini yg merelakan puteri mereka yg berumur 9 thn utk berbagi ranjang dgn saya (SESUAI DGN CONTOH MUHAMAD !)Wink
bai de we, FFI BUKAN Forum Kristen. Para penginjil sila
Islam mengajarkan bahwa Muslim harus mengundang semua orang memeluk Islam atau paling tidak tunduk pada dakwahnya. Jika non-muslim menolak, Muslim harus menyatakan perang/jihad.
Kata Muhammad (sad ardent wanker):
Berperanglah dalam nama Allah dan di jalan Allah. Perangi mereka yg tidak percaya Allah. Jalankan perang suci . . . Jika kau bertemu musuhmu yg musyrikun, undang mereka utk mengambil satu dari tiga pilihan. Jika mereka menanggapi dan kau menerimanya, tahan dirimu dari tindakan melukai mereka. Undang mereka (utk menerima) Islam; jika mereka menanggapi, terima dari mereka dan jangan memerangi mereka . . . Jika mereka menolak utk menerima Islam, tuntut dari mereka (pajak) Jizyah. Jika mereka setuju utk membayar, terimalah dan tahanlah tanganmu. Jika mereka menolak membayar Jizyah, mintalah pertolongan Allah dan PERANGI MEREKA ! (Sahih Muslim, book 19, no. 4294).
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/01/24/wsaint 24.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/01/24/ixworld.html
By Daniel McLaughlin in Kurilovo
(Filed: 24/01/2004)
Pada ulang tahun ke19-nya, teroris Chechen menjemput Yevgeny Rodionov dari selnya dan memberikannya pilihan utk masuk Islam. Ia menolak dan … MEREKA MEMENGGAL KEPALANYA.
Bagi pengikut agama Orthodox Rusia, tentara muda ini adalah martir. Kini ia diperingatkan sbg Santo Yevgeny. Foto2nya diabadikan pada ikon2 Rusia. Mereka menyajikan doa2 baginya dan gambarnya pada ikon dianggap membawa mukjizat.
"Saya bangga dgn putera saya, ia menghadapi maut dgn mata terbuka dan teguh pada agamanya," kata ibunya, Lyubov, sambil menunjukkan salib perak kecil berlumuran darah kering di tangannya (milik Yevgeny). "Tapi masalah ia Santo atau tidak – itu saya serahkan pada Tuhan."
Ny Rodionova menemukan salib itu di Chechnya, kawasan yg tercabik2 karena perang melawan Muslim yg ingin pisah dari Rusia, mendirikan negara Syariah tersendiri, tempat Yevgeny dikirim pada usia 18 dan mati setahun kemudian.
Ibunyalah yg menemukan sisa2 tubuh puteranya dan menggali tulang2nya dari sebuah kuburan dangkal dgn tangan telanjangnya. Salib itu menjadi tanda pengenalnya.
--------------------------------------------
See also :
http://www.rusnet.nl/news/2003/11/21/report07.shtml
The First Saint of the Chechen War
http://www.cdi.org/russia/johnson/8396-3.cfm
Lyubov Rodionov holding two portraits of her son Yevgeny - a primary school photograph and an unauthorized icon. Mrs. Rodionov says Muslim rebels killed him because he refused to renounce his religion
Heidi Bradner / The New York Times
An icon of Yevgeny Rodionov next to one of the Virgin Mary in a church near St. Petersburg
Heidi Bradner / The New York Times
_________________
Saya bersumpah akan kembali ke Islam jika ada Muslim di situs ini yg merelakan puteri mereka yg berumur 9 thn utk berbagi ranjang dgn saya (SESUAI DGN CONTOH MUHAMAD !)Wink
bai de we, FFI BUKAN Forum Kristen. Para penginjil sila
raqi official: I'll quit if sons freed
Why perform acts of terror? Because they work. Just ask Gloria Macapagal Arroyo and Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero. Non-jihadists in Iraq, having cooperated with the Americans, continue to be targeted. From Al-Jazeera, with thanks to Nicolei:
The governor of Iraq's Anbar province says he will happily resign if captors release three of his sons, snatched from their home by armed men.
"I am ready to give in to your demands, and if you believe my presence in the (provincial capital) city (Ramadi) does not serve the interests of the region, I am ready to go," said Abd Al-Karim Bargis in an open letter to the province on Saturday.
Bargis defended his period of office in the vast province on the border with Syria, Jordan and Saudi Arabia, saying he had arranged convoys of food and medicine for residents in Falluja when the city was besieged by US troops in April.
On Wednesday, his sons, aged 15 to 30, were snatched by armed men who barged into and torched his family home in Ramadi while he was at work.
Posted by Robert at August 1, 2004 7:34 AM
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Comments
(Note: Comments on articles are unmoderated, and do not necessarily reflect the views of Jihad Watch or Robert Spencer. Comments that are off-topic, offensive, slanderous, or otherwise annoying may be summarily deleted. However, the fact that particular comments remain on the site IN NO WAY constitutes an endorsement by Robert Spencer of the views expressed therein.)
A new discussion forum by a female ex-Muslim:
http://knowislam.info/forum//
Posted by: Ali Dashti [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 11:26 AM
Ramadi is next. I have first hand info that Fallujah is getting the shit kicked out of it right now every single day and night. No reporters allowed, so the press has limited coverage of it. After 2 months of dysinfo regarding the "fragility" of Ramadi and the "dangers" of Fallujah, the terrorists went for the bait and set up their little bomb factories in the 2 cities, attracting all kinds of bad guys who thought they had a good sanctuary. The are now assembled. Ramdi is next.
Posted by: Killshot [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 12:01 PM
God, I hope that is true. It would be a worthy strategy and makes complete sense.
Posted by: Foehammer [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 12:16 PM
OT
Voltaire:
I wasn't sure where to post this, but I'm still getting Trojan horse attempts from the Anti-jihad forum site. You might want to stop directing people there until they have the problem solved.
Did they respond to your post advising them of the problem? I went a few times with no problem so I think that this is a NEW Trojan horse infection. You might want to let them know.
Posted by: CGW [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 12:44 PM
The Thing might have to be rebuilt from the ground up.?
Fortunately members... "Sally?" are backing up and saving all forums.
Perhaps to Dump it and start anew With Saved forum is the way?.
The Popups are suspect.
Perhaps just a whole different set of popups would suffice.
Web page building is not a pursuit,So ignorance,and guesses is all we can offer.
Anti-jihad forum site is very valuable, in our humble opinion
Posted by: AvrageJoe [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 1:01 PM
server.com has a free forum setup.
maybe it can be of service
Posted by: forrestshalom [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 4:08 PM
Killshot, I sure hope your intel is 100% accurate. It would make my day if that were true. I became clinically depressed after the Marines were told to stand down when they had almost solved the Fallujah problem.
Ramadi is next? Please, please, PLEASE make it so!
How about that al-Sadr guy? Any news on his soon-to-be demise?
And all this nastiness now threatening New York, New Jersey, and Washington, DC--Oh,boy, I sure do hope we have some effective followup plans for this one. Anybody have anything on that? Bob Owens? DC Watson? Nathan?
Maybe we could START by closing the borders with Mexico until we get them under control. That Pakistani woman can't be the only one who took advantage of that. Gotta do the same with the Canadian border, too. Sorry about that, Canada--I wish more than just about anything things were different with you guys. All this moaning and groaning about "Oh, we can't do anything about the borders, they're too long!" is just a bunch of BS. Hell, if we don't have adequate surveillance technology ourselves, outsource the job to the Israelis!
Posted by: cubed [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 4:46 PM
Hope Reza is reading how brave Muslim warrior deserts his post faster than Fillipinos. Bargis
has certainly BARGED OUT!
Posted by: Morgane [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 7:08 PM
CUBED
I'm Canadian and I totally agree that our limp-wristed Liberals don't know or even care about the threat to the USA.
The Liberals were so worried about offending Muslim in Canada after the 9/11 attack that killed 25 Canadians(one from my work that was on the 105th floor waiting to see a client) among the total,it took over a year to erect a memorial to our victims. The plaque was hidden in a restricted area of Parliament for MP's to relax and read from books supplied on the shelves.
I tried to report a local immigrant and refugee welcoming centre that smuggled people into the USA and housed some near me by bring them from the airport at night and rushing them inside under the cloak of darkness. I noticed the cars having U.S. plates and a couple of the drivers avoided eye contact with me,the RCMP office had a 1-800 # but insisted nothing was illegal and lots of people drive at night.
After that call I contacted the FBI office in Niagara Falls since they surely cared about USA
plates on cars re-entering the Country.My Government is going to get me killed by their P.C. mindset,but I did record the plate I.D. of a car from OHIO being driven by a Arab looking male in a dark 2 door Honda or older Toyota.
The last month or so I've seen two cars with Florida plates,nobody I know would drive from Florida to Toronto when our weather is crap.
Jihad Watch has had stories of Florida Mosques
and a story about a Muslim cleric from a Mosque in OHIO,odd how both state plates appear on cars in my area. Trust me,we don't really get a summer,it's more like a extended fall with no snow. Oh,some cars also had N.Y. and New Jursey
plates,these weren't innocent tourists visiting a cold and windy city for the fun of it.
Posted by: ala-sux [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 4:11 AM
Thanks CGW.
I'll let them know about this new one.
Voltaire
Posted by: Voltaire [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 6:23 AM
I've let them know, CGW.
I hope that they'll fix up the problem.
Voltaire
The governor of Iraq's Anbar province says he will happily resign if captors release three of his sons, snatched from their home by armed men.
"I am ready to give in to your demands, and if you believe my presence in the (provincial capital) city (Ramadi) does not serve the interests of the region, I am ready to go," said Abd Al-Karim Bargis in an open letter to the province on Saturday.
Bargis defended his period of office in the vast province on the border with Syria, Jordan and Saudi Arabia, saying he had arranged convoys of food and medicine for residents in Falluja when the city was besieged by US troops in April.
On Wednesday, his sons, aged 15 to 30, were snatched by armed men who barged into and torched his family home in Ramadi while he was at work.
Posted by Robert at August 1, 2004 7:34 AM
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A new discussion forum by a female ex-Muslim:
http://knowislam.info/forum//
Posted by: Ali Dashti [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 11:26 AM
Ramadi is next. I have first hand info that Fallujah is getting the shit kicked out of it right now every single day and night. No reporters allowed, so the press has limited coverage of it. After 2 months of dysinfo regarding the "fragility" of Ramadi and the "dangers" of Fallujah, the terrorists went for the bait and set up their little bomb factories in the 2 cities, attracting all kinds of bad guys who thought they had a good sanctuary. The are now assembled. Ramdi is next.
Posted by: Killshot [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 12:01 PM
God, I hope that is true. It would be a worthy strategy and makes complete sense.
Posted by: Foehammer [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 12:16 PM
OT
Voltaire:
I wasn't sure where to post this, but I'm still getting Trojan horse attempts from the Anti-jihad forum site. You might want to stop directing people there until they have the problem solved.
Did they respond to your post advising them of the problem? I went a few times with no problem so I think that this is a NEW Trojan horse infection. You might want to let them know.
Posted by: CGW [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 12:44 PM
The Thing might have to be rebuilt from the ground up.?
Fortunately members... "Sally?" are backing up and saving all forums.
Perhaps to Dump it and start anew With Saved forum is the way?.
The Popups are suspect.
Perhaps just a whole different set of popups would suffice.
Web page building is not a pursuit,So ignorance,and guesses is all we can offer.
Anti-jihad forum site is very valuable, in our humble opinion
Posted by: AvrageJoe [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 1:01 PM
server.com has a free forum setup.
maybe it can be of service
Posted by: forrestshalom [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 4:08 PM
Killshot, I sure hope your intel is 100% accurate. It would make my day if that were true. I became clinically depressed after the Marines were told to stand down when they had almost solved the Fallujah problem.
Ramadi is next? Please, please, PLEASE make it so!
How about that al-Sadr guy? Any news on his soon-to-be demise?
And all this nastiness now threatening New York, New Jersey, and Washington, DC--Oh,boy, I sure do hope we have some effective followup plans for this one. Anybody have anything on that? Bob Owens? DC Watson? Nathan?
Maybe we could START by closing the borders with Mexico until we get them under control. That Pakistani woman can't be the only one who took advantage of that. Gotta do the same with the Canadian border, too. Sorry about that, Canada--I wish more than just about anything things were different with you guys. All this moaning and groaning about "Oh, we can't do anything about the borders, they're too long!" is just a bunch of BS. Hell, if we don't have adequate surveillance technology ourselves, outsource the job to the Israelis!
Posted by: cubed [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 4:46 PM
Hope Reza is reading how brave Muslim warrior deserts his post faster than Fillipinos. Bargis
has certainly BARGED OUT!
Posted by: Morgane [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 7:08 PM
CUBED
I'm Canadian and I totally agree that our limp-wristed Liberals don't know or even care about the threat to the USA.
The Liberals were so worried about offending Muslim in Canada after the 9/11 attack that killed 25 Canadians(one from my work that was on the 105th floor waiting to see a client) among the total,it took over a year to erect a memorial to our victims. The plaque was hidden in a restricted area of Parliament for MP's to relax and read from books supplied on the shelves.
I tried to report a local immigrant and refugee welcoming centre that smuggled people into the USA and housed some near me by bring them from the airport at night and rushing them inside under the cloak of darkness. I noticed the cars having U.S. plates and a couple of the drivers avoided eye contact with me,the RCMP office had a 1-800 # but insisted nothing was illegal and lots of people drive at night.
After that call I contacted the FBI office in Niagara Falls since they surely cared about USA
plates on cars re-entering the Country.My Government is going to get me killed by their P.C. mindset,but I did record the plate I.D. of a car from OHIO being driven by a Arab looking male in a dark 2 door Honda or older Toyota.
The last month or so I've seen two cars with Florida plates,nobody I know would drive from Florida to Toronto when our weather is crap.
Jihad Watch has had stories of Florida Mosques
and a story about a Muslim cleric from a Mosque in OHIO,odd how both state plates appear on cars in my area. Trust me,we don't really get a summer,it's more like a extended fall with no snow. Oh,some cars also had N.Y. and New Jursey
plates,these weren't innocent tourists visiting a cold and windy city for the fun of it.
Posted by: ala-sux [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 4:11 AM
Thanks CGW.
I'll let them know about this new one.
Voltaire
Posted by: Voltaire [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 6:23 AM
I've let them know, CGW.
I hope that they'll fix up the problem.
Voltaire
Sejarah Indonesia dan Dunia
Sejarah Perkembangan Kota Gudeg
Buku "Sejarah Perkembangan Kota Yogyakarta, 1880-1930" (Yayasan Untuk Indonesia, 2000) ini merupakan studi yang mempelajari proses penyesuaian beberapa kelompok penduduk kerajaan dalam semasa kolonisasi Belanda. Dalam proses itu, terjadi kontak kultural antara kekuatan tradisional dengan kolonial. Dalam pengertian sederhana, berarti telah terjadi sebuah dinamika sejarah dan kebudayaan dalam kehidupan masyarakat Yogya.
Buku karangan Abdurrachman Surjomihardjo ini menitikberatkan uraiannya pada perkembanagan tiga lembaga sosial: pendidikan, gerakan politik lokal, dan pers. Di dalamnya pembaca akan menemui peran golongan bangsawan, golongan mason, dan berbagai golongan agama yang sama-sama memikirkan dan merespon perubahan-perubahan yang terjadi di kota tersebut.
Abdurrachman menemukan bahwa kelompok masonlah yang mula-mula menjadi pusat berkumpulnya berbagai golongan penduduk di kota Yogya. Gerakan kemasonan (freemasonry) adalah aliran pembebasan pikiran yang menerima sesama manusia dalam kedudukan dan kesempatan yang sama, tanpa pembedaan bangsa, warna kulit, dan agama. Tujuannya adalah untuk "ikut serta secara aktif dalam proses perkembangan suatu negara dan bangsa secara serasi" (hal. 42).
Hal ini terjadi bukan saja karena mereka giat dalam usaha dagang tetapi juga karena mobilitasnya kemudian memberi kemungkinan meneriman pikiran dan penemuan baru. Hal terahir inilah yang menjadi syarat perubahan masyarakat dari tardisional menuju ke kemodernan. (One)
Kebudayaan Indis dan Gaya Hidup Masyarakat Pendukungnya di Jawa (Abad XVII-Medio Abad XX)
Prof. Dr. Djoko Soekiman
Yayasan Bentang Budaya, Yogyakarta
Januari 2000
Kebudayaan Indis
Budaya Hibrid di Jawa Tempo Dulu
Oleh Kurniawan
detikcom Kamis, 08/06/2000
Buku ini memaparkan tentang gaya hidup suatu masyarakat yang disebut Indis pada abad XVIII sampai pertengahan abad XX di tanah Jawa. Djoko Soekiman beruntung diberi kesempatan membuka-buka berbagai arsip sejarah di masa itu dan menemukan suatu proses akulturasi budaya Belanda terhadap budaya setempat yang tumbuh subur di alam tropis Jawa.
Dalam buku yang berasal dari disertasi doktoralnya di Universitas Gadjah Mada Yogyakarta, Soekiman memetakan sedikitnya tiga macam bentuk manifestasi dari budaya Indis ini, yakni sistem budaya (cultural system), aktivitasnya, dan dalam bentuk benda-benda (artefacts).
Dengan mengamati detil-detil gaya hidupnya, seperti cara mereka berbahasa, berpakaian, ragam perangkat rumah tangga, gaya rumah, dan juga benda-benda yang berhubungan dengan kegiatan ritual keagamaan, Soekiman berupaya membuktikan keberadaan budaya hibrid itu. Soekiman juga mengusulkan nama khusus untuk gaya seni fenomenal itu dengan nama gaya Indis.
Buku ini menambah satu lagi kepustakaan sejarah Indonesia. Meski penyajiannya kering, maklum dari disertasi, namun buku ini dilengkapi pula ilustrasi foto yang berguna untuk memahami paparannya. Secara khusus, buku ini menjadi pendalaman pada budaya tertentu di masa tertentu dari sejarah tanah Jawa yang secara garis besar dan menarik pernah dibahas oleh Denys Lombard dalam Nusa Jawa: Silang Budaya. Namun, berbeda dari Lombard yang hendak mengkaji seholistik mungkin, Soekiman lebih memperhatikan aspek benda-benda sebagai bentuk ekspresi dan jejak-jejak budaya Indis yang dimaksudnya."
Palu Arit di Ladang Tebu: Sejarah Pembantaian Massal yang Terlupakan (Jombang-Kediri 1965-1966)
Hermawan Sulistyo
Kepustakaan Populer Gramedia
12/01/01
Palu Arit di Ladang Tebu
Pesantren, Pabrik Gula, dan Konflik Sosial
Kurniawan
detikcom - Jakarta Senin, 03/07/2000
Buku ini diterjemahkan dari disertasi Hermawan Sulistyo yang menyoroti pembantaian massal PKI di Jombang dan Kediri. Dengan menekankan pada konfrontasi lokal dan pengaruh politik nasional, secara rinci dia memaparkan mengapa terjadi pembantaian disana.
Setelah penculikan dan pembunuhan para jenderal pada 30 Sepetember 1965, dan konfrontasi langsung antara dua kelompok perwira Angkatan Darat dan pasukan masing-masing di ibukota, darah pun mulai menggenang. Tanah Jawa Tengah menjadi ladang pembantaian pertama lewat operasi militer yang dilancarkan tentara. Menyusul di kawasan-kawasan lain Jawa dan Bali.
Dalang
Aksi pembersihan tak sebatas pengurus Partai Komunis Indonesia (PKI), tapi juga meluas ke anggota dan simpatisannya. Selanjutnya darah bertumpahan tak cuma disebabkan operasi militer, tapi juga konflik antarpenduduk di hampir seluruh Indonesia. Laporan resmi tim dari AD pada awal Desember 1965 menyebut bahwa korban terbunuh mencapai 78.000 orang. Jumlah sebenarnya masih perdebatan, berkisar antara 500 ribu hingga 600 ribu jiwa.
Namun, Orde Baru yang lahir setelah peristiwa tersebut telah membangun sebuah wacana sejarah yang cenderung menghapuskan fakta pada tahun 1965-1966 tersebut. Wacana yang berkembang kemudian menjadikan PKI sebagai hantu, "orang-orang jahat", dan mimpi paling menakutkan dalam sejarah republik.
Hermawan Sulistyo mengangkat kembali lembaran kelam dari sejarah republik ini ke dalam disertasinya di Arizona University, AS, The Forgotten Years: The Missing History of Indonesia's Mass Slaughter (Jombang-Kediri 1965-1966). Disertasinya ini kemudian diterjemahkan dan kemudian diterbitkan oleh Kepustakaan Populer Gramedia dalam sebuah buku berjudul Palu Arit di Ladang Tebu: Sejarah Pembantaian Massal yang Terlupakan (Jombang-Kediri 1965-1966).
Seperti ditulis pengarangnya, buku ini "tidak menyodorkan interpretasi baru atas Peristiwa Gestapu". Tapi, "studi ini berusaha melukiskan dan menganalisa berbagai ketegangan dan konflik sosial yang mendahului terjadinya pembunuhan pasca-Gestapu". Namun, Hermawan nampaknya menyadari bahwa mustahil membahas sebuah peristiwa dalam sejarah tanpa memetakan "dalang" di balik peristiwa itu.
Pada dua bab pertama, sepanjang 90 halaman, pengarang buku ini mencoba memetakan konstelasi politik secara umum sebelum terjadinya Gestapu. Khususnya pada bab kedua, di bawah judul "Historiografi Gestapu: Siapa Pelakunya?", pengarang menguraikan satu persatu tesis-tesis yang pernah ada mengenai dalang peristiwa tersebut. Sedikitnya, ada lima skenario yang selama ini diketahui mengenai sabab musabab peristiwa tersebut: PKI sebagai dalang, masalah internal Angkatan Darat, Soekarno sebagai orang yang paling bertanggung jawab, Soeharto sebagai dalang, dan intelejen (termasuk CIA).
Hermawan tak banyak melakukan penggalian yang lebih jauh pada kedua bab ini, kecuali mendaftar berbagai tulisan yang pernah terbit mengenai Gestapu beserta tafsirnya. Tak ada kesimpulan umum dari paparan ini, kecuali mengajukan berbagai sanggahan untuk setiap thesis dengan menunjukkan satu dua kelemahannya.
Ladang Tebu
Pada bab-bab berikutnya, sebuah panorama yang lebih nyata dan berdarah dipaparkan. Fokus utama dari buku ini adalah pada kasus pembantaian massal yang terjadi di Jombang dan Kediri. Hermawan berupaya memetakan konflik-konflik yang melatari peristiwa pembantaian massal di kedua daerah itu. Dia menemukan, ada banyak faktor yang melatarinya, dan yang pasti bahwa konflik politik nasional telah menjalar hingga pecah konflik fisik yang disertai kekerasan di tingkat lokal.
Lebih fokus lagi, Hermawan menyoroti bagaimana berdirinya pesantren dan pabrik gula di dua daerah itu secara historis telah mengubah peta sosial dan budaya di wilayah setempat. Berdirinya PG telah menumbuhkan semacam budaya sekuler di kalangan pegawai dan buruh yang bekerja disana.
Sementara di sisi lain, ada semacam misi suci dari kaum ulama Islam untuk berdakwah disana. Satu persatu pesantren kemudian berdiri di sekitarnya dan menciptakan budaya santri yang khas. Belakangan, pesantren-pesantren yang ada, lewat tradisi yang mereka pertahankan, berhasil memperkuat jaringan kekuatan Islam yang ada. Bahkan, mereka mampu mendirikan organisasi Nahdlatul Ulama yang berkembang sebagai partai dan menjadi salah satu kekuatan politik utama hingga sekarang.
Antara pesantrean dan komunitas di PG tersebut saling berhubungan, sebagian menciptakan pola kerjasama, namun juga sebagian lagi mmembangun konfrontasi. "Orientasi kultural dan perilaku sosial menjadi identitas kelompok, dan persaingan politik bertumpang tindih dengan pemilahan kultural," tulis Hermawan.
Di lapisan permukaan, konfrontasi itu politik terjadi dalam bentuk persaingan antar partai politik yang berpuncak pada Pemilu 1955. Setelah pelarangan terhadap Masyumi pada 1960, praktis partai yang bermuka-muka adalah antara NU dan PKI. Hermawan menguraikan secara cukup rinci, bagaimana setahap demi setahap konflik yang ada berkembang jadi konflik terbuka hingga pecah pada penyerangan fisik.
Setelah pembunuhan para jenderal di Jakarta, kabar tersebut sampai ke Jombang dan Kediri dengan informasi yang sangat terbatas dan tidak berimbang. Aksi-aksi menentang PKI mulai muncul dan perlahan mulai mendekati titik didih, hingga akhirnya pecahlah pada pembantaian berdarah.
Pada bab V buku ini secara khusus memaparkan pola-pola pembunuhan yang terjadi. Baik jenis operasi-operasi yang dilakukan, maupun sisi-sisi politik, psikologi, dan pribadi dari para algojo. Bagian ini kaya dengan rincian kejadian, orang-orang yang terlibat, dan kronologi peristiwanya.
Pemenang yang Diam
Banyak karya tulis yang diterbitkan mengenai tragedi ini. Kebanyakan ditulis dari pihak yang kalah, yakni dari sudut para korban (dalam buku ini Hermawan misalnya menyebut dan sekaligus mengupas secara khusus buku Robert Cribb, The Indonesian Killing of 1965-1966, 1990). Sementara, para pemenang membuat sejarah versinya sendiri, misalnya berupa "buku putih" yang selama ini diterbitkan oleh tentara atau buku yang mendasarkan penulisannya pada pengakuan dari pihak tentara.
Hermawan, sebaliknya, mencoba mengungkapkan peristiwa itu dari sudut para pemenang yang justru tinggal diam. Mereka termasuk pula aktor utama yang terlibat dalam penumpasan PKI, yakni para algojo nontentara dan para pemimpin kelompok ronda. Mereka bukan elit, tapi sebagian punya pengaruh di tingkat lokal.
Selain itu, dai menunjukkan pula bahwa ada banyak aspek yang mendorong terjadinya pembantaian tersebut, dari amok hingga dendam tentara, dari konflik agama hingga konflik kelas, dari lemahnya integrasi nasional hingga tekanan ekonomi. Semuanya itu memberikan sumbangan yang bermakna hingga lahirnya pembantaian berdarah tersebut. (Kurniawan)
Student Indonesia di Eropa
Dr Abdul Rivai
Kepustakaan Populer Gramedia
2000
Student Indonesia di Eropa
KPG Terbitkan Kumpulan Karangan Doktor Pertama Indonesia
oleh Kurniawan
detikcom Rabu, 04/10/2000
Kepustakaan Populer Gramedia baru saja menerbitkan buku Student Indonesia di Eropa. Buku yang menghimpun karangan Dr Abdul Rivai di suratkabar Bintang Timoer ini mencatat pergulatan politik dan pemikiran mahasiswa Indonesia di Eropa sebelum Soempah Pemoeda.
"Kepustakaan Populer Gramedia (KPG) baru saja menerbitkan buku Student Indonesia di Eropa. Buku setebal 383 halaman ini merupakan kumpulan karangan Dr Abdul Rivai yang pernah diterbitkan oleh media yang memuat artikel-artikelnya tersebut, suratkabar Bintang Timoer.
Rivai adalah doktor Indonesia pertama lulusan Universitas Gent, Belgia, lewat program doktoral tanpa disertasi dengan ujian terbuka pada tahun 1908. Rivai yang lulusan STOVIA ini kemudian menjadi redaktur suratkabar Bintang Timoer di Eropa.
Rivai adalah seorang saksi mata yang dengan cermat dan kritis mengungkapkan kehidupan mahasiswa Indonesia di Eropa. Dengan panjang lebar Rivai menguraikan suka duka mahasiswa Indonesia, selain dinamika politik Perhimpunan Indonesia yang melibatkan tokoh utama pergerakan seperti Mohammad Hatta. Karangan Rivai yang dihimpun dalam buku ini diambil dari laporannya antara November 1926 hingga Mei 1928.
"Selain menyegarkan ingatan kita tentang masa-masa awal pergerakan nasional, karya ini berguna juga sebagai acuan untuk mengenal lebih dekat kehidupan dan pergulatan para mahasiswa Indonesia di Eropa, terutama dalam pergerakan nasional melalui Perhimpunan Indonesia di Nederland," tulis sejarawan Prof Dr Teuku Ibrahim Alfian dalam pengantar buku ini.
E = mc2
Semua anak kecil tahu persamaan berikut: E = mc2 (baca: E sama dengan m kali c kuadrat). Dan tak ada yang tahu siapa yang membikin persamaan ini: Albert Einstein. Yang jadi pokok masalah adalah seberapa jauh orang memahami persamaan yang tampaknya demikian mudah ini?
Untunglah ada seorang David Bodanis yang mencoba mendongengkan kembali kisah persamaan paling terkenal di dunia ini dalam bukunya, "E = mc2: A Biography of the World's Most Famous Equation" (Walker & Co, 2000). David Bodanis telah mengajar bertahun-tahun di dalam penelitian sejarah intelektual di Universitas Oxford.
"Kaum Victorian," tulis Bodanis,"telah berpikir bahwa mereka telah menemukan semua sumber-sumber energi yang mungkin ada: energi kimia, energi panas, energi magnetik, dan lainnya. Tapi, sekitar 1905, Einstein bilang, Tidak, ada tempat lain yang dapat Anda lihat di mana Anda tak akan menemukannya lagi. Persamaannya seperti sebuah teleskop yang menggiring kita ke sana, tapi tempat tersembunyi itu tidaklah jauh di angkasa luar sana. Dia ada di bawah sini --dia ada di sini di depan para pendahulunya. Dia menemukan wadah sumber energi ini dalam satu tempat di mana tak seorang pun berpikir untuk mencarinya. Dia tersembunyi selamanya dalam materi padat itu sendiri."
Dalam periode hanya beberapa bulan saja, Einstein menerbitkan dua kertas kerja ilmiah yang mengubah cara kita memandang alam sekeliling kita. Yang pertama memuat teori relativitasnya yang dikenal sebagai "relativitas khusus" dan kedua sebuah tambahan pendek yang menjelaskan apa yang kita sebut sebagai "kesimpulan yang sangat menarik". Kesimpulan itu adalah E=mc2. (One)
Dunia Arab
Philip K. Hitti, orientalis keturunan Libanon itu, diakui kepakarannya di bidang sejarah dan kesasatraan Arab. Dengan posisi demikian, Hitti pernah mengepalai Department of Oriental Studies di Univsersitas Princeton, AS.
Sumbangan terbesar Hitti dalam studi dunia Arab adalah diterbitkannya "History of the Arabs" pada tahun 1943. Dari buku inilah kemudian disarikan jadi sebuah buku ringkas sejarah Arab, "The Arabs, A Short History", yang untuk pertama kalinya pernah diterbitkan dalam versi bahasa Indonesia pada tahun 1970 oleh Penerbit Sumur, Bandung. Kini, Pustaka Iqra menerbitkan kembali buku Hitti ini dengan tajuk "Sejarah Ringkas Dunia Arab" (Pustaka Iqra, 2001)
Hitti adalah orientalis yang punya kekaguman terhadap kebudayaan Arab dan Islam. Dengan mudah hal ini bisa pembaca temukan bila membaca bagaimana Hitti memaparkan perkembangan peradaban Arab dan sumbangannya terhadap peradaban Barat.
Hitti melukiskan bagaimana masyarakat yang memiliki peradaban yang sangat kaya, para pemimpinnya tengah mempelajari filsafat Yunani, pada saat bersamaan Charlemagne dan para penasehatnya di Eropa tengah mencoba belajar menulis sendiri namanya. Pada saat demikian, masyarakat Arab justru menyelamatkan harta karun seni dan filsafat Yunani Kuno dan Persia dan mengembangkan standar-standar dalam ilmu kedokteran, biologi, filsafat, arsitektur, pertanian, dan bidang-bidang lain yang tak terduga sebelumnya. Prestasi ini menyebar ke Eropa melalui Spanyol dan Sisilia dan jadi faktor utama yang menyulut lahirnya rennaisance di Eropa.(One)
Dari Ekspansi Hingga Krisis: Jaringan Perdagangan Global Asia Tenggara 1450-1680
Anthony Reid
Obor Indonesia
1999
9794611077
Ekspansi Hingga Krisis
Wajah Asia Tenggara Sebelum Kolonialisme
Kurniawan
detikcom Rabu, 02/08/2000
Buku ini merupakan jilid kedua tentang sejarah perdagangan Asia Tenggara. Jilid pertamanya bertajuk Southeast Asia in the Age of Commerce 1450-1680: The Lands Below the Winds.
"Anthony JS Reid adalah professor pada Division of Pacific and Asian History, Research School of Pacific and Asian Studies, The Australian National University. Sebagai sejarawan, dia dikenal intens mendalami sejarah ekonomi pada Asia Tenggara. Buku Dari Ekspansi Hingga Krisis: Jaringan Perdagangan Global Asia Tenggara 1450-1680 ini adalah terjemahan dari Southeast Asia in the Age of Commerce, 1450-1680: Expansion and Crisis. Buku ini merupakan jilid kedua tentang sejarah perdagangan Asia Tenggara. Jilid pertamanya bertajuk Southeast Asia in the Age of Commerce 1450-1680: The Lands Below the Winds.
Pada buku yang diterbitkan Yayasan Obor Indonesia ini, Reid mengeksplorasi kehidupan sehari-hari beragam masyarakat Asia Tenggara di bawah pengaruh tradisi perdagangan dunia. Dalam bukunya ini, Reid memaparkan perihal masalah dan pergeseran yang berkembang di wilayah ini sebagai perkawinan lokal dan dunia yang lebih luas. Bagaimana perkawinan tersebut mewarnai jatuh bangunnya kehidupan kota dagang, aspek keberagamaan, proses ekonomi, dan perubahan politik." (one)
Buku "Sejarah Perkembangan Kota Yogyakarta, 1880-1930" (Yayasan Untuk Indonesia, 2000) ini merupakan studi yang mempelajari proses penyesuaian beberapa kelompok penduduk kerajaan dalam semasa kolonisasi Belanda. Dalam proses itu, terjadi kontak kultural antara kekuatan tradisional dengan kolonial. Dalam pengertian sederhana, berarti telah terjadi sebuah dinamika sejarah dan kebudayaan dalam kehidupan masyarakat Yogya.
Buku karangan Abdurrachman Surjomihardjo ini menitikberatkan uraiannya pada perkembanagan tiga lembaga sosial: pendidikan, gerakan politik lokal, dan pers. Di dalamnya pembaca akan menemui peran golongan bangsawan, golongan mason, dan berbagai golongan agama yang sama-sama memikirkan dan merespon perubahan-perubahan yang terjadi di kota tersebut.
Abdurrachman menemukan bahwa kelompok masonlah yang mula-mula menjadi pusat berkumpulnya berbagai golongan penduduk di kota Yogya. Gerakan kemasonan (freemasonry) adalah aliran pembebasan pikiran yang menerima sesama manusia dalam kedudukan dan kesempatan yang sama, tanpa pembedaan bangsa, warna kulit, dan agama. Tujuannya adalah untuk "ikut serta secara aktif dalam proses perkembangan suatu negara dan bangsa secara serasi" (hal. 42).
Hal ini terjadi bukan saja karena mereka giat dalam usaha dagang tetapi juga karena mobilitasnya kemudian memberi kemungkinan meneriman pikiran dan penemuan baru. Hal terahir inilah yang menjadi syarat perubahan masyarakat dari tardisional menuju ke kemodernan. (One)
Kebudayaan Indis dan Gaya Hidup Masyarakat Pendukungnya di Jawa (Abad XVII-Medio Abad XX)
Prof. Dr. Djoko Soekiman
Yayasan Bentang Budaya, Yogyakarta
Januari 2000
Kebudayaan Indis
Budaya Hibrid di Jawa Tempo Dulu
Oleh Kurniawan
detikcom Kamis, 08/06/2000
Buku ini memaparkan tentang gaya hidup suatu masyarakat yang disebut Indis pada abad XVIII sampai pertengahan abad XX di tanah Jawa. Djoko Soekiman beruntung diberi kesempatan membuka-buka berbagai arsip sejarah di masa itu dan menemukan suatu proses akulturasi budaya Belanda terhadap budaya setempat yang tumbuh subur di alam tropis Jawa.
Dalam buku yang berasal dari disertasi doktoralnya di Universitas Gadjah Mada Yogyakarta, Soekiman memetakan sedikitnya tiga macam bentuk manifestasi dari budaya Indis ini, yakni sistem budaya (cultural system), aktivitasnya, dan dalam bentuk benda-benda (artefacts).
Dengan mengamati detil-detil gaya hidupnya, seperti cara mereka berbahasa, berpakaian, ragam perangkat rumah tangga, gaya rumah, dan juga benda-benda yang berhubungan dengan kegiatan ritual keagamaan, Soekiman berupaya membuktikan keberadaan budaya hibrid itu. Soekiman juga mengusulkan nama khusus untuk gaya seni fenomenal itu dengan nama gaya Indis.
Buku ini menambah satu lagi kepustakaan sejarah Indonesia. Meski penyajiannya kering, maklum dari disertasi, namun buku ini dilengkapi pula ilustrasi foto yang berguna untuk memahami paparannya. Secara khusus, buku ini menjadi pendalaman pada budaya tertentu di masa tertentu dari sejarah tanah Jawa yang secara garis besar dan menarik pernah dibahas oleh Denys Lombard dalam Nusa Jawa: Silang Budaya. Namun, berbeda dari Lombard yang hendak mengkaji seholistik mungkin, Soekiman lebih memperhatikan aspek benda-benda sebagai bentuk ekspresi dan jejak-jejak budaya Indis yang dimaksudnya."
Palu Arit di Ladang Tebu: Sejarah Pembantaian Massal yang Terlupakan (Jombang-Kediri 1965-1966)
Hermawan Sulistyo
Kepustakaan Populer Gramedia
12/01/01
Palu Arit di Ladang Tebu
Pesantren, Pabrik Gula, dan Konflik Sosial
Kurniawan
detikcom - Jakarta Senin, 03/07/2000
Buku ini diterjemahkan dari disertasi Hermawan Sulistyo yang menyoroti pembantaian massal PKI di Jombang dan Kediri. Dengan menekankan pada konfrontasi lokal dan pengaruh politik nasional, secara rinci dia memaparkan mengapa terjadi pembantaian disana.
Setelah penculikan dan pembunuhan para jenderal pada 30 Sepetember 1965, dan konfrontasi langsung antara dua kelompok perwira Angkatan Darat dan pasukan masing-masing di ibukota, darah pun mulai menggenang. Tanah Jawa Tengah menjadi ladang pembantaian pertama lewat operasi militer yang dilancarkan tentara. Menyusul di kawasan-kawasan lain Jawa dan Bali.
Dalang
Aksi pembersihan tak sebatas pengurus Partai Komunis Indonesia (PKI), tapi juga meluas ke anggota dan simpatisannya. Selanjutnya darah bertumpahan tak cuma disebabkan operasi militer, tapi juga konflik antarpenduduk di hampir seluruh Indonesia. Laporan resmi tim dari AD pada awal Desember 1965 menyebut bahwa korban terbunuh mencapai 78.000 orang. Jumlah sebenarnya masih perdebatan, berkisar antara 500 ribu hingga 600 ribu jiwa.
Namun, Orde Baru yang lahir setelah peristiwa tersebut telah membangun sebuah wacana sejarah yang cenderung menghapuskan fakta pada tahun 1965-1966 tersebut. Wacana yang berkembang kemudian menjadikan PKI sebagai hantu, "orang-orang jahat", dan mimpi paling menakutkan dalam sejarah republik.
Hermawan Sulistyo mengangkat kembali lembaran kelam dari sejarah republik ini ke dalam disertasinya di Arizona University, AS, The Forgotten Years: The Missing History of Indonesia's Mass Slaughter (Jombang-Kediri 1965-1966). Disertasinya ini kemudian diterjemahkan dan kemudian diterbitkan oleh Kepustakaan Populer Gramedia dalam sebuah buku berjudul Palu Arit di Ladang Tebu: Sejarah Pembantaian Massal yang Terlupakan (Jombang-Kediri 1965-1966).
Seperti ditulis pengarangnya, buku ini "tidak menyodorkan interpretasi baru atas Peristiwa Gestapu". Tapi, "studi ini berusaha melukiskan dan menganalisa berbagai ketegangan dan konflik sosial yang mendahului terjadinya pembunuhan pasca-Gestapu". Namun, Hermawan nampaknya menyadari bahwa mustahil membahas sebuah peristiwa dalam sejarah tanpa memetakan "dalang" di balik peristiwa itu.
Pada dua bab pertama, sepanjang 90 halaman, pengarang buku ini mencoba memetakan konstelasi politik secara umum sebelum terjadinya Gestapu. Khususnya pada bab kedua, di bawah judul "Historiografi Gestapu: Siapa Pelakunya?", pengarang menguraikan satu persatu tesis-tesis yang pernah ada mengenai dalang peristiwa tersebut. Sedikitnya, ada lima skenario yang selama ini diketahui mengenai sabab musabab peristiwa tersebut: PKI sebagai dalang, masalah internal Angkatan Darat, Soekarno sebagai orang yang paling bertanggung jawab, Soeharto sebagai dalang, dan intelejen (termasuk CIA).
Hermawan tak banyak melakukan penggalian yang lebih jauh pada kedua bab ini, kecuali mendaftar berbagai tulisan yang pernah terbit mengenai Gestapu beserta tafsirnya. Tak ada kesimpulan umum dari paparan ini, kecuali mengajukan berbagai sanggahan untuk setiap thesis dengan menunjukkan satu dua kelemahannya.
Ladang Tebu
Pada bab-bab berikutnya, sebuah panorama yang lebih nyata dan berdarah dipaparkan. Fokus utama dari buku ini adalah pada kasus pembantaian massal yang terjadi di Jombang dan Kediri. Hermawan berupaya memetakan konflik-konflik yang melatari peristiwa pembantaian massal di kedua daerah itu. Dia menemukan, ada banyak faktor yang melatarinya, dan yang pasti bahwa konflik politik nasional telah menjalar hingga pecah konflik fisik yang disertai kekerasan di tingkat lokal.
Lebih fokus lagi, Hermawan menyoroti bagaimana berdirinya pesantren dan pabrik gula di dua daerah itu secara historis telah mengubah peta sosial dan budaya di wilayah setempat. Berdirinya PG telah menumbuhkan semacam budaya sekuler di kalangan pegawai dan buruh yang bekerja disana.
Sementara di sisi lain, ada semacam misi suci dari kaum ulama Islam untuk berdakwah disana. Satu persatu pesantren kemudian berdiri di sekitarnya dan menciptakan budaya santri yang khas. Belakangan, pesantren-pesantren yang ada, lewat tradisi yang mereka pertahankan, berhasil memperkuat jaringan kekuatan Islam yang ada. Bahkan, mereka mampu mendirikan organisasi Nahdlatul Ulama yang berkembang sebagai partai dan menjadi salah satu kekuatan politik utama hingga sekarang.
Antara pesantrean dan komunitas di PG tersebut saling berhubungan, sebagian menciptakan pola kerjasama, namun juga sebagian lagi mmembangun konfrontasi. "Orientasi kultural dan perilaku sosial menjadi identitas kelompok, dan persaingan politik bertumpang tindih dengan pemilahan kultural," tulis Hermawan.
Di lapisan permukaan, konfrontasi itu politik terjadi dalam bentuk persaingan antar partai politik yang berpuncak pada Pemilu 1955. Setelah pelarangan terhadap Masyumi pada 1960, praktis partai yang bermuka-muka adalah antara NU dan PKI. Hermawan menguraikan secara cukup rinci, bagaimana setahap demi setahap konflik yang ada berkembang jadi konflik terbuka hingga pecah pada penyerangan fisik.
Setelah pembunuhan para jenderal di Jakarta, kabar tersebut sampai ke Jombang dan Kediri dengan informasi yang sangat terbatas dan tidak berimbang. Aksi-aksi menentang PKI mulai muncul dan perlahan mulai mendekati titik didih, hingga akhirnya pecahlah pada pembantaian berdarah.
Pada bab V buku ini secara khusus memaparkan pola-pola pembunuhan yang terjadi. Baik jenis operasi-operasi yang dilakukan, maupun sisi-sisi politik, psikologi, dan pribadi dari para algojo. Bagian ini kaya dengan rincian kejadian, orang-orang yang terlibat, dan kronologi peristiwanya.
Pemenang yang Diam
Banyak karya tulis yang diterbitkan mengenai tragedi ini. Kebanyakan ditulis dari pihak yang kalah, yakni dari sudut para korban (dalam buku ini Hermawan misalnya menyebut dan sekaligus mengupas secara khusus buku Robert Cribb, The Indonesian Killing of 1965-1966, 1990). Sementara, para pemenang membuat sejarah versinya sendiri, misalnya berupa "buku putih" yang selama ini diterbitkan oleh tentara atau buku yang mendasarkan penulisannya pada pengakuan dari pihak tentara.
Hermawan, sebaliknya, mencoba mengungkapkan peristiwa itu dari sudut para pemenang yang justru tinggal diam. Mereka termasuk pula aktor utama yang terlibat dalam penumpasan PKI, yakni para algojo nontentara dan para pemimpin kelompok ronda. Mereka bukan elit, tapi sebagian punya pengaruh di tingkat lokal.
Selain itu, dai menunjukkan pula bahwa ada banyak aspek yang mendorong terjadinya pembantaian tersebut, dari amok hingga dendam tentara, dari konflik agama hingga konflik kelas, dari lemahnya integrasi nasional hingga tekanan ekonomi. Semuanya itu memberikan sumbangan yang bermakna hingga lahirnya pembantaian berdarah tersebut. (Kurniawan)
Student Indonesia di Eropa
Dr Abdul Rivai
Kepustakaan Populer Gramedia
2000
Student Indonesia di Eropa
KPG Terbitkan Kumpulan Karangan Doktor Pertama Indonesia
oleh Kurniawan
detikcom Rabu, 04/10/2000
Kepustakaan Populer Gramedia baru saja menerbitkan buku Student Indonesia di Eropa. Buku yang menghimpun karangan Dr Abdul Rivai di suratkabar Bintang Timoer ini mencatat pergulatan politik dan pemikiran mahasiswa Indonesia di Eropa sebelum Soempah Pemoeda.
"Kepustakaan Populer Gramedia (KPG) baru saja menerbitkan buku Student Indonesia di Eropa. Buku setebal 383 halaman ini merupakan kumpulan karangan Dr Abdul Rivai yang pernah diterbitkan oleh media yang memuat artikel-artikelnya tersebut, suratkabar Bintang Timoer.
Rivai adalah doktor Indonesia pertama lulusan Universitas Gent, Belgia, lewat program doktoral tanpa disertasi dengan ujian terbuka pada tahun 1908. Rivai yang lulusan STOVIA ini kemudian menjadi redaktur suratkabar Bintang Timoer di Eropa.
Rivai adalah seorang saksi mata yang dengan cermat dan kritis mengungkapkan kehidupan mahasiswa Indonesia di Eropa. Dengan panjang lebar Rivai menguraikan suka duka mahasiswa Indonesia, selain dinamika politik Perhimpunan Indonesia yang melibatkan tokoh utama pergerakan seperti Mohammad Hatta. Karangan Rivai yang dihimpun dalam buku ini diambil dari laporannya antara November 1926 hingga Mei 1928.
"Selain menyegarkan ingatan kita tentang masa-masa awal pergerakan nasional, karya ini berguna juga sebagai acuan untuk mengenal lebih dekat kehidupan dan pergulatan para mahasiswa Indonesia di Eropa, terutama dalam pergerakan nasional melalui Perhimpunan Indonesia di Nederland," tulis sejarawan Prof Dr Teuku Ibrahim Alfian dalam pengantar buku ini.
E = mc2
Semua anak kecil tahu persamaan berikut: E = mc2 (baca: E sama dengan m kali c kuadrat). Dan tak ada yang tahu siapa yang membikin persamaan ini: Albert Einstein. Yang jadi pokok masalah adalah seberapa jauh orang memahami persamaan yang tampaknya demikian mudah ini?
Untunglah ada seorang David Bodanis yang mencoba mendongengkan kembali kisah persamaan paling terkenal di dunia ini dalam bukunya, "E = mc2: A Biography of the World's Most Famous Equation" (Walker & Co, 2000). David Bodanis telah mengajar bertahun-tahun di dalam penelitian sejarah intelektual di Universitas Oxford.
"Kaum Victorian," tulis Bodanis,"telah berpikir bahwa mereka telah menemukan semua sumber-sumber energi yang mungkin ada: energi kimia, energi panas, energi magnetik, dan lainnya. Tapi, sekitar 1905, Einstein bilang, Tidak, ada tempat lain yang dapat Anda lihat di mana Anda tak akan menemukannya lagi. Persamaannya seperti sebuah teleskop yang menggiring kita ke sana, tapi tempat tersembunyi itu tidaklah jauh di angkasa luar sana. Dia ada di bawah sini --dia ada di sini di depan para pendahulunya. Dia menemukan wadah sumber energi ini dalam satu tempat di mana tak seorang pun berpikir untuk mencarinya. Dia tersembunyi selamanya dalam materi padat itu sendiri."
Dalam periode hanya beberapa bulan saja, Einstein menerbitkan dua kertas kerja ilmiah yang mengubah cara kita memandang alam sekeliling kita. Yang pertama memuat teori relativitasnya yang dikenal sebagai "relativitas khusus" dan kedua sebuah tambahan pendek yang menjelaskan apa yang kita sebut sebagai "kesimpulan yang sangat menarik". Kesimpulan itu adalah E=mc2. (One)
Dunia Arab
Philip K. Hitti, orientalis keturunan Libanon itu, diakui kepakarannya di bidang sejarah dan kesasatraan Arab. Dengan posisi demikian, Hitti pernah mengepalai Department of Oriental Studies di Univsersitas Princeton, AS.
Sumbangan terbesar Hitti dalam studi dunia Arab adalah diterbitkannya "History of the Arabs" pada tahun 1943. Dari buku inilah kemudian disarikan jadi sebuah buku ringkas sejarah Arab, "The Arabs, A Short History", yang untuk pertama kalinya pernah diterbitkan dalam versi bahasa Indonesia pada tahun 1970 oleh Penerbit Sumur, Bandung. Kini, Pustaka Iqra menerbitkan kembali buku Hitti ini dengan tajuk "Sejarah Ringkas Dunia Arab" (Pustaka Iqra, 2001)
Hitti adalah orientalis yang punya kekaguman terhadap kebudayaan Arab dan Islam. Dengan mudah hal ini bisa pembaca temukan bila membaca bagaimana Hitti memaparkan perkembangan peradaban Arab dan sumbangannya terhadap peradaban Barat.
Hitti melukiskan bagaimana masyarakat yang memiliki peradaban yang sangat kaya, para pemimpinnya tengah mempelajari filsafat Yunani, pada saat bersamaan Charlemagne dan para penasehatnya di Eropa tengah mencoba belajar menulis sendiri namanya. Pada saat demikian, masyarakat Arab justru menyelamatkan harta karun seni dan filsafat Yunani Kuno dan Persia dan mengembangkan standar-standar dalam ilmu kedokteran, biologi, filsafat, arsitektur, pertanian, dan bidang-bidang lain yang tak terduga sebelumnya. Prestasi ini menyebar ke Eropa melalui Spanyol dan Sisilia dan jadi faktor utama yang menyulut lahirnya rennaisance di Eropa.(One)
Dari Ekspansi Hingga Krisis: Jaringan Perdagangan Global Asia Tenggara 1450-1680
Anthony Reid
Obor Indonesia
1999
9794611077
Ekspansi Hingga Krisis
Wajah Asia Tenggara Sebelum Kolonialisme
Kurniawan
detikcom Rabu, 02/08/2000
Buku ini merupakan jilid kedua tentang sejarah perdagangan Asia Tenggara. Jilid pertamanya bertajuk Southeast Asia in the Age of Commerce 1450-1680: The Lands Below the Winds.
"Anthony JS Reid adalah professor pada Division of Pacific and Asian History, Research School of Pacific and Asian Studies, The Australian National University. Sebagai sejarawan, dia dikenal intens mendalami sejarah ekonomi pada Asia Tenggara. Buku Dari Ekspansi Hingga Krisis: Jaringan Perdagangan Global Asia Tenggara 1450-1680 ini adalah terjemahan dari Southeast Asia in the Age of Commerce, 1450-1680: Expansion and Crisis. Buku ini merupakan jilid kedua tentang sejarah perdagangan Asia Tenggara. Jilid pertamanya bertajuk Southeast Asia in the Age of Commerce 1450-1680: The Lands Below the Winds.
Pada buku yang diterbitkan Yayasan Obor Indonesia ini, Reid mengeksplorasi kehidupan sehari-hari beragam masyarakat Asia Tenggara di bawah pengaruh tradisi perdagangan dunia. Dalam bukunya ini, Reid memaparkan perihal masalah dan pergeseran yang berkembang di wilayah ini sebagai perkawinan lokal dan dunia yang lebih luas. Bagaimana perkawinan tersebut mewarnai jatuh bangunnya kehidupan kota dagang, aspek keberagamaan, proses ekonomi, dan perubahan politik." (one)
TANGAN2 KOTOR ISLAM TERNYATA JUGA MENINGGALKAN BEKAS DLM PERISTIWA G30S/PKI
Ini yg gua dapatkan dari internet:
http://www.geocities.com/z_iwan/teks/buku_sejarah.html
PALU ARIT, PEMBANTAIAN DI LADANG TEBU
Pada bab-bab berikutnya, sebuah panorama yang lebih nyata dan berdarah dipaparkan. Fokus utama dari buku ini adalah pada kasus pembantaian massal yang terjadi di Jombang dan Kediri.
Lebih fokus lagi, Hermawan menyoroti bagaimana berdirinya pesantren dan pabrik gula di dua daerah itu secara historis telah mengubah peta sosial dan budaya di wilayah setempat. Berdirinya PABRIK GULA telah menumbuhkan semacam budaya sekuler di kalangan pegawai dan buruh yang bekerja disana.
Sementara di sisi lain, ada semacam misi suci dari kaum ulama Islam untuk berdakwah disana. Satu persatu pesantren kemudian berdiri di sekitarnya dan menciptakan budaya santri yang khas. Belakangan, pesantren-pesantren yang ada, lewat tradisi yang mereka pertahankan, berhasil memperkuat jaringan kekuatan Islam yang ada. Bahkan, mereka mampu mendirikan organisasi Nahdlatul Ulama yang berkembang sebagai partai dan menjadi salah satu kekuatan politik utama hingga sekarang.
Antara pesantrean dan komunitas di PG tersebut saling berhubungan, sebagian menciptakan pola kerjasama, namun juga sebagian lagi membangun konfrontasi. "Orientasi kultural dan perilaku sosial menjadi identitas kelompok, dan persaingan politik bertumpang tindih dengan pemilahan kultural," tulis Hermawan.
Setelah pembunuhan para jenderal di Jakarta, kabar tersebut sampai ke Jombang dan Kediri dengan informasi yang sangat terbatas dan tidak berimbang. Aksi-aksi menentang PKI mulai muncul dan perlahan mulai mendekati titik didih, hingga akhirnya pecahlah pada pembantaian berdarah.
(dan terulang lagi di Timtim, Poso, Ambon, Bali. Memang MO Islam sama terus dari dulu sampai sekarang ! Begitu ada berita korban Muslim, lalu massa KALAP, SAMBER CELURIT, BUNUUUUUHHHHHHH .... )
Lihat juga http://dannyreviews.com/h/The_Indonesian_Killings.html
_________________
Saya bersumpah akan kembali ke Islam jika ada Muslim di situs ini yg merelakan puteri mereka yg berumur 9 thn utk berbagi ranjang dgn saya (SESUAI DGN CONTOH MUHAMAD !)Wink
bai de we, FFI BUKAN Forum Kristen. Para penginjil silahkan ke situs lain.
http://www.geocities.com/z_iwan/teks/buku_sejarah.html
PALU ARIT, PEMBANTAIAN DI LADANG TEBU
Pada bab-bab berikutnya, sebuah panorama yang lebih nyata dan berdarah dipaparkan. Fokus utama dari buku ini adalah pada kasus pembantaian massal yang terjadi di Jombang dan Kediri.
Lebih fokus lagi, Hermawan menyoroti bagaimana berdirinya pesantren dan pabrik gula di dua daerah itu secara historis telah mengubah peta sosial dan budaya di wilayah setempat. Berdirinya PABRIK GULA telah menumbuhkan semacam budaya sekuler di kalangan pegawai dan buruh yang bekerja disana.
Sementara di sisi lain, ada semacam misi suci dari kaum ulama Islam untuk berdakwah disana. Satu persatu pesantren kemudian berdiri di sekitarnya dan menciptakan budaya santri yang khas. Belakangan, pesantren-pesantren yang ada, lewat tradisi yang mereka pertahankan, berhasil memperkuat jaringan kekuatan Islam yang ada. Bahkan, mereka mampu mendirikan organisasi Nahdlatul Ulama yang berkembang sebagai partai dan menjadi salah satu kekuatan politik utama hingga sekarang.
Antara pesantrean dan komunitas di PG tersebut saling berhubungan, sebagian menciptakan pola kerjasama, namun juga sebagian lagi membangun konfrontasi. "Orientasi kultural dan perilaku sosial menjadi identitas kelompok, dan persaingan politik bertumpang tindih dengan pemilahan kultural," tulis Hermawan.
Setelah pembunuhan para jenderal di Jakarta, kabar tersebut sampai ke Jombang dan Kediri dengan informasi yang sangat terbatas dan tidak berimbang. Aksi-aksi menentang PKI mulai muncul dan perlahan mulai mendekati titik didih, hingga akhirnya pecahlah pada pembantaian berdarah.
(dan terulang lagi di Timtim, Poso, Ambon, Bali. Memang MO Islam sama terus dari dulu sampai sekarang ! Begitu ada berita korban Muslim, lalu massa KALAP, SAMBER CELURIT, BUNUUUUUHHHHHHH .... )
Lihat juga http://dannyreviews.com/h/The_Indonesian_Killings.html
_________________
Saya bersumpah akan kembali ke Islam jika ada Muslim di situs ini yg merelakan puteri mereka yg berumur 9 thn utk berbagi ranjang dgn saya (SESUAI DGN CONTOH MUHAMAD !)Wink
bai de we, FFI BUKAN Forum Kristen. Para penginjil silahkan ke situs lain.
BIAR DINIKMATI PARA BABI KEPARAT YANG MELAKUKANNYA, MEREKA YAnG MENDUKUNGNYA DAN MEREKA YANG TIDAK MAU TAHU
Palu, Sabtu
Tiga siswa SMU di Kabupaten Poso, Sulawesi Tengah (Sulteng) Sabtu pagi ditemukan tewas dalam keadaan kepala terpenggal.
Informasi yang dihimpun dari Poso, Sabtu (29/10) menyebutkan ketiga siswa SMU Kristen Poso yang tewas mengenaskan itu diidentifikasi bernama Teresia Morangki siswa kelas 3, Ida Lambuaga (kelas 1) dan Alfitha Poliwo (kelas 1). Jenazah warga Kelurahan Bukit Bambu Kota Poso ini ditemukan di Jalan Bumboyo, masih dalam wilayah dusun Bambu, sekitar pukul 07.30 Wita.
Nyawa ketiga gadis belia ini diduga kuat dihabisi pelakunya saat dalam perjalanan ke sekolah yang berjarak sekitar sembilan kilometer dari rumah mereka. Tubuh ketiga siswa mengenakan seragam pramuka tersebut ditemukan di Jalan Bumboyo, Kelurahan Bukit Bambu, sementara penggalan kepala mereka berada di lokasi lain.
Dua penggalan kepala ditemukan di wilayah Kecamatan Lage, sekitar 100 meter dari Markas Polsek setempat atau sekitar 10 kilometer dari TKP dan SATU KEPALA lagi di Kelurahan Kasiguncu sekitar 20 kilometer dari TKP atau tepatnya DI DEPAN GEREJA Kasiguncu.
Selain ketiga korban tewas, tiga siswa SMU Kristen yang juga warga Kelurahan Bukit Bambu menderita luka bacok serius. Seorang di antara mereka bernama Noviani.
Seluruh korban telah dievakuasi ke RSUD Poso, dan hingga berita ini diturunkan polisi masih melakukan penyisiran di tempat penemuan tubuh dan kepala korban pembantaian ini.//
AYO MUSLIM, MANA KOMENTAR ELU ??? KALAU ELU MEMANG PENCINTA DAMAI, PROTES DONG KE POSO ! JANGAN CUMA BERKOAR DISINI DOANG!
Tiga siswa SMU di Kabupaten Poso, Sulawesi Tengah (Sulteng) Sabtu pagi ditemukan tewas dalam keadaan kepala terpenggal.
Informasi yang dihimpun dari Poso, Sabtu (29/10) menyebutkan ketiga siswa SMU Kristen Poso yang tewas mengenaskan itu diidentifikasi bernama Teresia Morangki siswa kelas 3, Ida Lambuaga (kelas 1) dan Alfitha Poliwo (kelas 1). Jenazah warga Kelurahan Bukit Bambu Kota Poso ini ditemukan di Jalan Bumboyo, masih dalam wilayah dusun Bambu, sekitar pukul 07.30 Wita.
Nyawa ketiga gadis belia ini diduga kuat dihabisi pelakunya saat dalam perjalanan ke sekolah yang berjarak sekitar sembilan kilometer dari rumah mereka. Tubuh ketiga siswa mengenakan seragam pramuka tersebut ditemukan di Jalan Bumboyo, Kelurahan Bukit Bambu, sementara penggalan kepala mereka berada di lokasi lain.
Dua penggalan kepala ditemukan di wilayah Kecamatan Lage, sekitar 100 meter dari Markas Polsek setempat atau sekitar 10 kilometer dari TKP dan SATU KEPALA lagi di Kelurahan Kasiguncu sekitar 20 kilometer dari TKP atau tepatnya DI DEPAN GEREJA Kasiguncu.
Selain ketiga korban tewas, tiga siswa SMU Kristen yang juga warga Kelurahan Bukit Bambu menderita luka bacok serius. Seorang di antara mereka bernama Noviani.
Seluruh korban telah dievakuasi ke RSUD Poso, dan hingga berita ini diturunkan polisi masih melakukan penyisiran di tempat penemuan tubuh dan kepala korban pembantaian ini.//
AYO MUSLIM, MANA KOMENTAR ELU ??? KALAU ELU MEMANG PENCINTA DAMAI, PROTES DONG KE POSO ! JANGAN CUMA BERKOAR DISINI DOANG!
Bomb blasts rock Iraqi churches
But of course, this conflict has nothing to do with religion. From the BBC, with thanks to Susan:
The first two blasts happened near churches in the busy Karada shopping area of Baghdad, sending a plume of smoke across the neighbourhood.
At least two people are reported to have been killed in what appears to be a new tactic by insurgents.
A third blast was reported a short time later in Mosul, where a police station had been bombed earlier in the day.
Witnesses said a car bomb detonated outside an Armenian church as an evening service was getting under way.
Shattered glass
It blew out stained glass windows, and scattered pieces of hot metal across the street. The wreckage of at least three burned out cars was left in its wake.
"I saw injured women and children and men, the church's glass shattered everywhere. There's glass all over the floor," Juliette Agob, who was inside the church at the time, was quoted by the Associated Press as saying.
Ten minutes later, as the emergency services raced to the scene, a second blast went off outside a Syrian Catholic church some 400 metres from the first church.
An ambulance driver said two people had been killed.
At around the same time, a suspected car bomb went off outside a church in Mosul.
Posted by Robert at August 1, 2004 12:56 PM
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Comments
(Note: Comments on articles are unmoderated, and do not necessarily reflect the views of Jihad Watch or Robert Spencer. Comments that are off-topic, offensive, slanderous, or otherwise annoying may be summarily deleted. However, the fact that particular comments remain on the site IN NO WAY constitutes an endorsement by Robert Spencer of the views expressed therein.)
I am an Iraqi christian, and i swear, i wish the USA would airlift every single Iraqi christian, and drop them on Dearnborn michigan. I wish more "christians" in the west would speak out about what happens to us.
Ps. Christians are harmless, thats why sadam used use to cook his food.
Posted by: islamwatcher [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 1:14 PM
Does anyone know the name or other specific information about any of the three churches mentioned in the news item?
Pilgrim
Posted by: Pilgrim [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 1:14 PM
Hey Catholics:
Reza's calling you "muslims" over on the Dhimmi Watch July 31 "Tariq Ramadan . . . " thread.
Posted by: CGW [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 1:21 PM
OT:
Great article by a CANADIAN, a must-read.
GOD BLESS AMERICA
Posted by: CGW [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 1:31 PM
Hey folks:
MEMRI reports as follows regarding the Saudi terror suspect who turned himself in under the Amnesty:
http://www.memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD75404
A few weeks after Al-Omari was turned in, the Saudi newspapers reported that the Saudi authorities had paid off Al-Omari's debts. According to Al-Watan, Othman Al-Omari's mother expressed her "gratitude and appreciation of Prince Muhammad Bin Naif for his noble initiative to pay off the debts of her son, who recently turned himself in to the Saudi authorities." The mother recounted that "Prince Muhammad Bin Naif contributed the entire sum, totaling 170,000 SR [$45,300], as well as a grant of 30,000 SR [$8,000] to Al-Omari's family. In addition, a monthly stipend of 3,000 SR [$800] will be paid to Othman Al-Omari's children, as well as a salary of 2,000 SR [$530] to Othman Al-Omari himself." [3]
And more recently, they have posted that the Saudi Gazette has a message of thanks from Al-Omari's mother in it. The Saudi Gazette is and English language propaganda arm of the Saudis. So, of course, your humble researcher attempted to find out if what MEMRI had posted was true. And, it must be true, because the Gazette has blocked access to every issue of the Gazette for the whole month of July.
Posted by: Mentat [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 1:36 PM
In 1933, five months after the British left, and having promised not to harm minorities, Muslims in Iraq attacked and murdered tens of thousands of helpless Assyrian Christians. Some say the figure was "only" 70,000. William Saroyan, of Armenian ancestry, wrote about the massacres; he called his book "70,000 Assyrians." Perhaps it is time to reprint it, along with all the eyewitness testimonies of Armenian survivors of the attacks, not based on ethnicity but rather on hatred of the "giavour" or Infidel (or "Christiand dog") which in 1894-95 and to much more murderous effect, in 1915 and the years following, by Turks, and Kurds, and even by the Arabs of the Syrian Desert who would pick off Armenian women and girls as they made their way to the relative safety of Christian communities in such places as Haleb (Aleppo) and Beirut.
The attacks on Christian churches, and on Chistians in Iraq, is simply one more chapter in the long history, recorded by Bat Ye'or in "The Decline of Eastern Christianity Under Islam," a book that should be read by policymakers, and by all those who take an interest in what Islam holds in store for Infidels.
And, of course,one need only look at the slow asphyxiation of the Copts in Egypt, of the once-thriving Christian civilization of North Africa (home of both Tertullian and St. Augustine), of formerly-Christian Byzantium with its vast riches and advanced civilization, of Christians today anywhere that Muslims predominate -- in Pakisan and the Sudan and Indonesia -- or even where they form a minority sufficiently strong to feel it can go on the attack (as in the Philippines, and in Bosnia and Kosovo).
How much evidence, from the texts of Islam, and from the behavior of Muslims through time and space, does one need? What further evidence does one require?
Posted by: Hugh [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 2:06 PM
islamwatcher,
You said, "I wish more 'christians' in the west would speak out about what happens to us."
Where would I obtain information about what is happening to you? I can read Arabic poorly, French better, and English best. I can speak Arabic somewhat better than I read it.
To whom should I speak out?
If you wish to contact me directly, use mt1016b-tango@yahoo.com
Pilgrim
Posted by: Pilgrim [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 2:10 PM
This was mentioned in passing on a local chicago news talk show, just before the cut to something more important -- sports!
It is sad because the priorities of the American media are incomprehensible to me.
Now if this were a mosque, well now, that would be a hate crime and the media would go nuts!
Posted by: witness [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 2:26 PM
Wait a minute, according to that NYT beacon of secular platitudes, Nicholas Kristof, believing Christians are equally, a danger to civilization as we in the West know it, as believing Muslims are.
So what if the Koran sounds more like Mein Kempf than the Bible, so what if the word "Islam" literally translates into "submission", peace thru conquest. So what if the more violent passages of the Koran abrogate the earlier tolerant passages. So what if even moderate Muslims living the US talk on their blogs about the coming Islamic caliphate, and a Muslim in the white house.
We need to turn the discussion to True & False. Was the emperor of Japan, God? NO. Because the Japanese sincerely believed he was, did that make it so? NO. Does Allah, who needs the constant killing off of unbelievers, sound like he loves the little children? I don't think so. Instead he encourages his Islamic followers to raise their own children to become living bombs. Too, its their only assurance of Salvation with a lust-filled heaven in return. Does Allah sound anything like God to you?
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. -1 John 4:1
Posted by: daughter of patriots [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 2:31 PM
To Islamwatcher:
I am catholic too, spanish, but catholic, am very sad for what was happening, can you explain to us, if the situation for christians is better than before, and I would like to say that christians iraquis dont´have to leave Iraq, I dont´want a islamic republic, the christians in Iraq and like other countries are very culte and without them the arabic countries and non-arabic muslims countries would be in the Stone Age.
Greetings and my prayings for this christian and catholic people murdered in the name of Islam.
Posted by: Franze [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 2:52 PM
islamwatcher and pilgrim,
The Voice of the Martyrs is a non-profit, interdenominational organization with
a vision for aiding Christians around the world who are being persecuted for their beliefs.
VOM was founded by the Reverand Richard Wurmbrand, who spent 14 years in Romanian prisons.He wrote a book called Tortured for Christ as well as others.
Below is the link to their website.I hope this will be of help.
http://www.persecution.com/
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 3:05 PM
Pilgrim, thankyou for the solidarity, God bless all of you. Among iraqis the news travels fast, and through our media locals.
For western people, you need to read between the lines, as sad as it seems, they will cover it breifly. The best thing is to write to your congress and politicians, and ask them to forward the immigration process of the middle east christians. Remeber, muslims would arent refugues when they leave their islamic utopias.
Thankyou everyone, please keep us in prayer.
Posted by: islamwatcher [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 3:07 PM
Islamwatcher,
I am an American Christian and have already been praying for Iraqi Christians and am part of the Voice of the Martyr supporters. My first thought when I heard about the church blasts was that we should send planes to pick up all the Iraqi Christians and resettle them in the United States. If our FBI needs translators, why not the Iraqi Christians. Please keep posting here so we know how things are going. I will be contacting my govt officials about the plight of Iraqi Christians tomorrow. Be strong and courageous. Remember what Peter wrote about:
12Dear friends, do not be surprised at the painful trial you are suffering, as though something strange were happening to you. 13But rejoice that you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when His glory is revealed.
Jesus has already overcome the world and is with you as you go through the fire. I would prefer that all Christians in Muslim countries would come here to the U.S. if that were possible...because the judgement of the Islamic nations is at hand; Muslims are not fighting us, they are fighting Jesus since Christ lives in us. Their time is short. Remember Psalm 2 and Psalm 37. Don't be discouraged, we will see the day when every Muslim knee will bend to Jesus and every Muslim will confess that He is Lord not their false deity...we will even see the false prophet of Islam and OBL bowing to Jesus before Jesus removes them from us forever.
Remembering you in prayer and asking for your protection and deliverance!
Posted by: Abby [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 3:36 PM
this would be a great opportunity for 'brother' bush
our 'christian' president to demonstrate his faith:
evacuate all professing christians out of iraq and bring them to the usa.
(but i won't hold my breath on it)
by the way i came across an excellent article by
hugh fitzgerald entitled
'islam for the perplexed'
http://mailman.io.com/pipermail/freemanlist/2004-July/002457.html
Posted by: forrestshalom [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 4:04 PM
The sad thing is that tomorrow, the entire arab media will be describing these bombings as the work of Zionists/Mossad/Jews/Coalition Forces. A new conspiracy will be afoot.
I agree with everyone: Let's get the Christians out now!
Posted by: 3812Michelle [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 4:16 PM
Later reports say that six churches, not three, were attacked.
Pilgrim
Posted by: Pilgrim [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 4:18 PM
Forrestshalom,
If the President of the United States was a Jew, what actions would he take to help other Jews out side of the US.
I am geting a bit tired of your biased anti-Christian/Bush Rhetoric.
Futhermore, the Bush Administration has been very supportive of "Israel", more so than previous Administrations, MR. "Shalom"
You seem to have some type of issue with Christianty.
"lets face the TRUTH".
"the west: led by 'christian' america is in an alliance with the muslims".
"the war against 'terrorism' is only a ploy".
Posted by: forrestshalom at July 30, 2004 11:46 AM
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 5:22 PM
I am in canada, and i am going to be writing to my politicians to forward some of these people in. Let me tell you this, muslims, like the leeches they are, do pose as christians when they want to get to western countries, and many western immigration officials do ask them to recite certain prayers (this has happened to much of my family)
I press my american brothers and sisters to do the same, or any westerners for that matter.
I can remember seeing pics and reading about how Israel airlifted the remaining jews in iraq to safety, i wish the U.S. could do this.
God bless the U.S.A.
Posted by: islamwatcher [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 5:23 PM
islamwatcher,
Here is the US "all" politicians play the game of "politics" and as such it is unlikely and "unfortunate" that any action will be taken to airlift Christians out of Iraq or any other place in the world.
At this time George Bush is the best option we have.Until there is a better one, I shall support him.
The Voice of the Martyrs is a good organization.I recommend that you contact them.
May the grace and peace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you evermore.
Son of Infidel
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 6:18 PM
the war against islam will not be won by killing
a few or alot of muslims here and there.
it will be won once the ideology/religion is identified and dispatched. something that bush can't
see.
i don't think that this war will ulimately be won by humans, as it is diaobolical(satanic:hence spiritual
in nature).
a jewish american president? good idea. hopefully he would help his fellow jews in trouble like sharon
and israel does.
church going clinton and now bush has not lifted a finger to help any professing christian in muslim lands.
a HUGE difference! :)
Posted by: forrestshalom [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 6:25 PM
Just look at the climate of fear these barbarians have thrust our way of life into: "Hercules" police on library steps in NYC armed like soldiers.
Should we accept this or should we fight?
It is time to hold Islam to account for perpetuating this climate of hate.
Are you reading this, Saudi Arabia?
Are you reading this, mullahs in Iran?
Are you reading this, Syrian jihadists?
Are you reading this, Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt?
Welcome to the New Crusade.
America once had a climate where no Communist was welcome. Let us now allow no Muslim here that condones "Jihad." Reform or be expelled. That's the only wisdom I can see for dealing with Islam in the United States.
Al Qaeda -- attack us if you will, but be forwarned now -- the climate in the United States is like the foundering of your twisted cult on the razors edge and whichever way you push us it will cut badly for you.
Posted by: Foehammer [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 6:36 PM
I remember being very excited when I discovered VOM. Their materials are very professional and it seemed they had some good projects and actions going.
Over the year or so that I received their materials I formed an impression that I am posting here in order that it may be corrected if it is wrong. My impression was that VOM concentrated almost exclusively on Protestant Christians, especially Evangelicals. The item I remember -- but this is only my memory, and may well be selective or fallible! -- was an item on some persecutions on Cyprus, and Orthodox Christians weren't mentioned at all (either as having been persecuted or even as part of the scenery). FYI, I am Orthodox Christian.
Nonetheless, VOM is the first place I would try to get to notice what is happening to Christians in Iraq. And for all I know they've already done articles on it. :-)
Pilgrim
Posted by: Pilgrim [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 6:37 PM
Here is a possible resource but I know nothing about them so please don't flame me, just enlighten me.
Middle East Council of Churches
http://www.mecchurches.org/
Pilgrim
Posted by: Pilgrim [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 6:42 PM
an iraq (babylon) empty of jews?
i think this is highly significant prophetically.
during the great tribulation the jews are warned to flee mystery babylon.
obviously jews aren't returning to literal babylon/iraq soon.
my leading (in fact only) candidate for the accursed
"mystery babylon" is america.
america is the largest outpost of diaspora jews in the world: about 6 million.
God warns them to 'come out of her (mystery babylon)
before the final blows of judgement fall.
personally i think it is an islamic nuclear attack...
Posted by: forrestshalom [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 6:44 PM
And here is the only list of Baghdad Christian churches I've been able to find. I don't know how old it is. It may help identify the churches attacked today.
http://www.chaldeansonline.net/church/christian.html
Pilgrim
Posted by: Pilgrim [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 6:45 PM
as for the usa or bush being 'friends' with israel:
I DOUBT IT! this would be a funny statement if it were not so tragic and full of dire consequences.
how can the usa be the FRIENDS of both saudi arabia and israel?
the west led by the usa has armed the muslim world
and they in turn are using them on us.
another analogy from the book of daniel chapter 2:
iron/clay
iron:western arms and technology
clay:muslim oil
hint: "a'rav"
Posted by: forrestshalom [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 6:58 PM
Iraqi Christians of whatever denomination,come and join your brothers and sisters in the West.
We will welcome you with open arms. Apply as a persecuted minority for residence in New Zealand.
Posted by: Morgane [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 7:00 PM
Forrestshalom,
Israel is a "Jewish State" and was created for the preservation and continuance of the Jewish people.
Ezekiel 11:17
17 Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.
The United States is a nation of many faiths.
If President Bush were to bring persecuted Christians from other parts of the world to this country, or for that matter if any other President were to do this, they would be obligated to do the same for people of other faiths.
As such your previous comments are in error.
However I do agree with you concerning the diabolical "evil" of Islam.
The prophesy of the Book of Revelation will be fulfilled.
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 7:01 PM
clarification:
as for the usa or bush being 'friends' with israel:
I DOUBT IT! this would be a funny statement if it were not so tragic and full of dire consequences.
-------------
i meant to say 'tragically false' in the above statement.
Posted by: forrestshalom [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 7:02 PM
There is an inherentl differerence between Middle eastern Muslims and Middle Eastern Christians who liv ein the West.
And everywhere the story is the same.....Its the Muslims who cause the most trouble, show no respect,and are involved in subversive activities.....
The case ir closed.....and so are the socialists eyes it seems.
Posted by: Joe Bananas [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 7:08 PM
mystery babylon has many faiths alright.
and the king of false gospels: islam has arrived
to punish.
don't get uptite,
this is my opinion and i could be wrong.
i often wish i was wrong: i don't want my children
to live in a jew-less islamically enlightened country.
Posted by: forrestshalom [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 7:09 PM
Here's a link to a Canadian Islamic site that feels the media should be censored from printing the truth about the Saudis funding Wahabbism in Canada.
http://www.canadianislamiccongress.org/mc/media_communique.php?mcdate=2004-07-31
**************************************************
You'll get a laugh out of their "Islamophobe of the year" section,even though an ex-member from
the C.I.C. that now runs the www.muslimcanadiancongress.org has stated in public that Saudis fund seminars and speakers to push Wahabbism in Canada,the C.I.C. leader,Mohamed Elmasry insists the claims are really Islomophobia. Elmasry was on a Canadian show and mocked a Muslims female for not wearing an Hijab,she was a sinner to be judged by Allah in the day of Judgement.
Canadian Muslims have been on the CBC and proudly boasted that the USA derserved the 9/11 attack which include 25 dead Canadians.A local Mosque in Toronto now raises money for a Al-Qaeda family in Canada that praised Osama and suicide murderers.They want us dead and any excuse to blame Jews to justify slaughtering non-Muslims is now the standard procedure for Jihad.
Posted by: ala-sux [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 7:09 PM
Forrestshalom,
I agree with you concerning the arming of Arab/Muslims States by the US and I am totally against this.
Tell me what other Counrty gives the amount of miltary and economic support that the US does to the State of Israel.
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 7:12 PM
Typo: what other "country" gives
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 7:17 PM
to quote the emminent israeli scholar
yohanan ramati:
'there will be a palestinian state if the usa wants
one'.
he said further: israel is in no position to be isolated further in the world. clearly meaning that
tiny israel will do what big 'caesar' insists on.
yes it is a good thing that america currently gives israel financial support. besides being currently a safe haven for jews, it is the only thing that prevents the judgement aspect of the abrahamic covenant (gen 12.3) from kicking in.
america is playing a dangerous and deadly game in
trying to be friends with both sides.
i think therefore that the anti-christ comes out of america to negotiate a 7 year peace agreement with israel and the muslims.
america is the only 'respected' power broker for both sides.
does anyone else see this?
Posted by: forrestshalom [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 7:23 PM
Forestshalom,
It troubles me to see any Jew calling into question the alliance of the United States to Israel.
Go find a copy of "Friends in Deed" by Dan Raviv and Yossi Melman and end your ignorant ranting.
The United States has stood by Israel when all else in the world would have tossed you to the wolves decades ago. Do not start this revisionist dialogue here and especially not now. We have our own problems to deal with in the United States now, and it is due in no small way to our support of Israel amongst other things.
Posted by: Foehammer [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 7:38 PM
i'm gentile not jewish.
but the problem that can't be whisked away is:
the usa is in bed with the devil in saudi arabia.
this has been in developement for over 100 years.
now the devil wants his pound of flesh.
Posted by: forrestshalom [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 7:44 PM
Forrestshalom,
The current Administration, I hope is well aware of the dangers of a Palestinian State.
If the "politically correct" liberal Democrats ever get into the White House the possibilty of a Palesttinian State would be more likely.
The anti-Christ is already in the world and he shall rise from the continent of Europe.
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 7:44 PM
oh really? what's his name?
Posted by: forrestshalom [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 7:48 PM
Forrestshalom,
Gentile? Oh, well, whatever denomination you are, the same statements I made earlier apply. You once again are talking in distortions:
"the usa is in bed with the devil in saudi arabia.
this has been in developement for over 100 years."
Saudi Arabia was established in 1932.
You do the math.
Regardless, not all Saudi Arabians are our enemies, regardless of the nature of Islam. We need to deal with them firmly and harshly if necessary, but to act as if they harbor some great evil is insanity. The great evil that faces us is the continuation of the lies that push us toward some self-fulfilling prophecy from any side of the fence.
If any prophecy must be fulfilled, let it be one of the dignity of mankind and not fruitless destruction at the hands of zealots on all sides.
Posted by: Foehammer [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 7:53 PM
Forrestshalom,
This will be revealed in the future.
I am perfectly sane and quite serious about my statement.
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 7:53 PM
But to be more on the subject......I think that soon people are going to start to have a gutfull of all this.
9/11 has only emboldened these people to think that they will soon take over, their arrogance and irrational logic, along with their maifesto(Quran) is just bringing this out in the open.
The only people playing their game are the fools who think that all this is is just wishfull thinking amongst a few "zealouts".
Just out of curiosity though how do you know that the Anti-Christ is allready in Europe? I dont seem to have any scriptures to prove this?
Posted by: Joe Bananas [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 7:57 PM
definition clarification:
jew: anyone physically descended from ya'acov(jacob).
gentile: anyone else.
christian: a jew or gentile who has personally received Yeshua Ha'Machiach as his messiah and savior by calling upon Him to save him: believing in his hear that he died for their sins and rose again.
israel: the jewish people: whether in the promised land or not. can also mean the physical land that God promised the jews.
church: comprised of those defined as christian above.
christendom: probably the best term used to describe
anyone or anyTHING calling itself "christian". but not fulfilling the biblical definition.
questions?
Posted by: forrestshalom [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 7:59 PM
Forrestshalom......Forgive me but I dont understand what this has to do with Muslims wanting to Kill everyone or subduing them and impose Sharia law on the Earth.
As far as I'm concerned Muslims just want all Jews dead (along with everyone it seems, including and occasionaly some of their own)
Ahhhh what a peacefull religion...
Posted by: Joe Bananas [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 8:02 PM
Ok, now this thread is going in the wrong direction.
Posted by: Foehammer [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 8:03 PM
Foehammer,
I would be interested to know what course of action do you think would be appropriate in dealing with the Islamic Countries, such as Saudi Arabia, Iran and Syria?
"We need to deal with them firmly and harshly if necessary, but to act as if they harbor some great evil is insanity. The great evil that faces us is the"
Whether you believe this or not, there is a Satanic fury behind the "evil" of Islam.
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 8:08 PM
yes i am a gentile according to the biblical given above, but i have a jewish saviour Jesus or
'Yeshua' in hebrew.
americans first made contact with arabia in the late
20th century. they were american missionaries from the reformed church in america. they gained the trust of the arabians: (yes i know saud came later).
this laid the foundation of trust enabling americans to beat the europeans to the oil concession.
i have fascinating info to share on this
strange alliance in the future,and i am trying to find more information on the early formative years.
still this is decidedly not good at all according to the jewish bible: old and new covenants (all written by jews).
Posted by: forrestshalom [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 8:09 PM
islam is satanic to the core:
and the problem goes back to isaac/ishmael.
ultimately satan is in opposition to the Creator God: the God of Israel and His Son Jesus Christ.
the lord is allowing satan to manuever the nations including unbelieving national israel for the grand
finale.
i hope everyone chooses to be on the 'RIGHT' side, and the winning side by the way.
best regards to all: time for my bike ride
shalom
Posted by: forrestshalom [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 8:15 PM
Joe,
I can't go into anymore detail about this now and I am not trying to avoid your question.
Just keep your eye on the events taking place in Europe.
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 8:15 PM
Son of Infidel:
I've discussed this before, but it comes down to this -- before this conflict is over, I am convinced that Islamic nations worldwide and the Muslims here in the United States will all have to answer a call from the West:
Reform Islam and unconditionally cease all terrorist support, or face world war. Islam must answer or this evil will just cycle back and forth for all time until Islam finally attains its ultimate goal of religious dominance at the cost of modernity, humanity and the future.
This event will most likely manifest only after the United States and/or other predominantly Western/Judao-Christian nations suffer catastrophic terrorist acts that finally shake the rest us out of our Utopian-liberal delirium.
The current atmosphere is just the quiet before the storm, in my opinion. It is just a damn shame that it always takes tragedy to awaken Americans.
Posted by: Foehammer [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 8:21 PM
The current atmosphere is just the quiet before the storm, in my opinion. It is just a damn shame that it always takes tragedy to awaken Americans.
Amen to that...
There is one big whopping earth changing event just lurking around the corner.....waiting to happen.
Posted by: Joe Bananas [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 8:40 PM
I appreciate your reply, although unfortunately you are mistaken.
The Islamic countries and Muslims that you speak of will never reform what they believe to be the "truth" about their vile and "evil" ideology.
This belief they have is in their blood,their soul and their very existence.
The threat of force will not deter them from their present course and as you have seen they are more than willing to die for "Allah".
Well planned,clear and decisive military action aganist the countries that harbor, support and finance the Islamo-fascists is what is needed,vailed threats will accomplish nothing.
This current battle is unlike any that the world has faced before.Ultimately this will become the final conflict.
I am afraid that because of man's inability to learn from the past, he will pay a great price in the future.
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 8:55 PM
islamwatcher said, “am an Iraqi christian, and i swear, i wish the USA would airlift every single Iraqi christian, and drop them on Dearnborn michigan. I wish more "christians" in the west would speak out about what happens to us.”
islamwatcher, I hope all is well with your friends and family in Iraq.
Posted by: Sheik Canuck (swt) [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 10:06 PM
islamwatcher,
Can you or someone else point me at any web sites in Baghdad (maybe a newspaper or something?) that would give details on the churches attacked and so forth? Arabic is fine.
Pilgrim
Posted by: Pilgrim [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 10:41 PM
Pilgrim,
Try these; most current news is in the comment sections usually days before we get it. Local news organizations listed on side of blogs like Iraqinet may have more info.
http://messopotamian.blogspot.com/
http://iraqthemodel.blogspot.com/
http://hammorabi.blogspot.com/
Posted by: M [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 10:59 PM
The few comments that I have read here leaves me the the distraught impression that we are terrorized to some degree already.
While we debate the issues and agree on nothing, the barbarians are already in the gate and are employed in key position in places like the FBI.
Short of suitcase nukes going off or something, my sense suggests that the good old Norman Rockwell days in American are gone.
Like it or not, we are going to have to learn to live in perpetual fear like the Isrealies. But give credit to the other side for at least being united in a common cause which unfortunately is to destroy us.
Solutions? Short term, rescue the Christians and Jews in the Islamic countries and stop bikering over small stuff. Then, learn a lesson or two from the crusaders of the middle ages -- at least they put a stop to the Islamic nonesense for a couple of centuries.
Long term, it's in God's hands - not allah's.
Posted by: witness [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 11:18 PM
here's a site i found:
http://assyrianchristians.com/
Posted by: forrestshalom [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 11:22 PM
Forrestshalom,
You might be interested in reading M's comments at UK: Ahmadi Muslims call for 'peaceful jihad' August 1, 2004 10:41 PM
Below is one of these comments.
I would be curious to know your thoughts on this.
"But the majority Saudi people are decent human beings"
M claims that 80% of Saudis are Not Wahabbists and are peace loving Muslims.
PS: Have you read "Haterd's Kingdom" by Dore Gold
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 12:22 AM
witness,
"the barbarians are already in the gate and are employed in key position in places like the FBI".
Could you please elaborate on your above statement.I was not aware that the Islamo-fascists had infiltrated the FBI.
"Like it or not, we are going to have to learn to live in perpetual fear like the Israelis"
The Israelis are a strong,tough and intelligent group of people, that is how they have survived, and they shall continue to do so.
Furthermore, your above comment is dangerous to say the least.Living in fear is exactly what the enemy wants us to do.
Finally, the only thing I fear is the wrath of "God the Father Almighty",not the Islamic-devils.
"Then, learn a lesson or two from the crusaders of the middle ages -- at least they put a stop to the Islamic nonesense for a couple of centuries".
Below are some breif facts about the Crusades.
The first Crusade began in 1096 and they lasted approximately 250 years.During this time there were many atocties, torturing,pillaging and massacring of civilians all in the name of Christ. Many of these victims were Byzantine Christians as well as Jews that were slaugthered.
This rage continued across Europe to Constantinople where in 1204 the city was pillaged and looted of most of its great treasures.
Unfortunately your reference to the Crusades was a poor choice as this was a dark period for the world and a stain on Christianity.
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 1:29 AM
Here's an example of what's wrong with Islam and Muslim leaders.
Canada has about the same percentage of Muslims as Iraq has Christians,the article below shows how hypersensitive and paranoid they can be.
Schools out and kids will be kids,while Churches
in Iraq are being bombed by their Muslim Brother's
and have murdered at least 10 Christians,a Mosque in Hamilton Ontario Canada was hit with raw eggs.
No matter how many freedoms and rights exist for Muslims in Christian based Countries,any level of childish pranks are treated like a major racist attack. Take note on how the leaders want the prank investigated as a hate crime.
**************************************************
Muslims call on officials to condemn mosque vandalism Wednesday, July 14, 2004 5:35 pm
Hamilton mosque vandalized three times in two weeks.
(Ottawa, Canada - 14/07/2004) - The Canadian Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR-CAN) today called on local officials to condemn the recent vandalism of the Umar mosque in Hamilton, Ontario. CAIR-CAN also called on Hamilton police to treat the incident as a possible hate crime.
Recent reports indicate that vandals have thrown eggs at the mosque three times in the last two weeks. Two of the attacks occurred during prayers.In a statement issued today, CAIR-CAN wrote:
"In Islam, mosques are not simply places of worship,they are also social and community centers. "We need to hear a clear message from our officials that this type of hate activity will not be tolerated in Hamilton or in any other Canadian city. We are calling on Hamilton police to investigate this string of vandalism as possible hate crimes.
**************************************************
Meanwhile, CAIR remains mute on beheadings and blames the 9/11 attack on the JEWS,lets see them blame the Iraq bombings of Churches on the JEWS
or a plot by BUSH to justify the war and win the upcoming election later this year.
I don't see love or compassion and foregiveness being displayed by Islamic cleric's,Muslims learn
the values of Islam from Imam's and their local leaders. Harbouring hate and revengeful anger towards Jews and Christians is a learned behaviour
taught in the Mosques and community centre's.
Posted by: ala-sux [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 1:56 AM
It is difficult to insure liberty, when the friends you support are really sneaky two faced islamic fucks-I guess we cannot blame the FBI or CIA or any intelligence agency who hires lets say an arabic translator-I guess the only option they have is either hire a white guy-or hire the middle eastern guy and follow his every move-of course then we would not be supporting equal oppurtunity or we would be infringing on civil liberties-son of infedil is right--the only solution to this problem is to hunt down every one of the bastards-incorporating democracy is not an outright solution, but it has proven pretty successful in S. America and Asia. Witness, your comments about living in perpetual fear, Im sorry if you feel this way, but to live in fear is no way to live at all. Until I start seeing ragheads in the street with guns or car bombs-im not gonna fear shit-especially not with Mr. Smith and Mr. Wesson in my belt. And it seems that right now the terrorists or whatever they are supposed to be called-it seems they have their hands full trying to keep the democracy from being created. I think that we are starting to learn the tricks of the trade, and i have a good feeling that depending on who is president next term, Iraq actually might see some better days. As far as suitcase nukes being in the U.S.---i guess it is quite possible-but being that there are alot of phyics going into developing a bomb-wether it will detonate by fission or fusion, the various types of uranium needed, wether or not what they have is weapon grade uranium or uranium from an energy plant, without some serious brains it will be hard for them to create a bomb with the affects of Hiroshima. Of course u never know how lucky they can get-but be assured the government has devices for finding this shit-if they can find marijuana growing in someone's house via the usage of ultraviolet light sensors in aircraft-i would think they would have devices to detect nuclear substances.
Posted by: resister [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 2:08 AM
Resister makes some good points. Although we should all be aware of the Jihad being waged against us it would be a big mistake to see everything that's happening as "doom and gloom". A couple of my friends visited the site and, although they found it informative, they were left feeling "overwhelmed by so many negative stories." Let's try and see the positive side of the situation - people ARE waking up to the threat from Islam (just look at how many new members are posting here). Articles against Islam are starting to appear in the printed media that would have been unthinkable just months ago. I really believe the reason why Muslims in the West are suddenly becoming so pushy is because they sense their time is running out. They know we infidels are starting to catch on to their plans for jihad and they're having to speed up their efforts at turning us into dhimmis. But they are thus showing their hand too soon - they are still the minority in the West and despite the gains the liberal-left have given them the backlash is just around the corner. Sure it will be a long, painful struggle to rid ourselves of Islam's cult of death but we are already aware of who are friends and enemies are - we have the advantage.
LOVE LIFE - HATE ISLAM Spread the word....
Posted by: Son Of Albion [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 6:54 AM
I´m sad for the obligation of christian arabs to leave Middle East and going to USA, they´re clever minorities, very culte and it´s a tragedy, is a tragedy than you have to leave your country for your religion, but I would like to make a question, is in USA protected?, is in Canada protected?, in Europe I don´t ask because I´m spanish and I know the answers, I receive news from VOM, and they´re interesting.
Greetings in Christ
Posted by: Franze [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 7:23 AM
oh really? what's his name?
Posted by: forrestshalom at August 1, 2004 07:48 PM
Koffee Anan and the UN
Posted by: Mullah_Abu_Bin_Boobie [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 7:35 AM
M and forrestshalom,
Thank you very much for the web references.
Pilgrim
Posted by: Pilgrim [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 7:47 AM
Franze,
Christianity in the United States and in Canada so far is doing well.
How long this will last I can not say, as the politically correct left wing liberals continue to be enablers of , apologists for, and sympathizers with the Islamo-fascists.
May the grace and peace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 7:50 AM
A general note, out of context, about the word "Allah." The note is not directed at anybody in particular, and I'm going to make it as dry and factual as I can. :-)
As ever, folks should correct me if I am wrong.
The word "Allah" is just the Arabic word for "God." In the Arabic & English Bibles I obtained from the International Bible Society at the opening of the Gospel according to John, for example, the Arabic text uses "Allah." (That text is "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." NIV)
By simple logic and convention, we would say that the English word for "Allah" is "God." But many people use "Allah" instead of "God" in English to indicate they are talking about God-as-expounded-and-worshiped-by-Muslims as distinguished from God-as-expounded-and-worshiped-by-Jews-and-Christians.
This obviously emphasizes whatever differences exist and hides whatever commonalities exist.
End of note.
Pilgrim
Posted by: Pilgrim [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 8:22 AM
Iraq's Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani issued a statement on the bombings. Link to the news item itself at the end. Can anybody find me the Arabic text online?
----quote
"We denounce and condemn those terrible crimes... We should all be working together as a government and a people in order to put an end to the attacks against Iraqis," it added.
"We stress the need to respect the rights of Christians in Iraq and those of other religious faiths and their right to live in their home, Iraq, peacefully."
Sistani, based in the holy city of Najaf, south of Baghdad, is the most prominent and widely respected of Iraq's Shiite majority.
----end quote
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/afp/20040802/wl_mideast_afp/iraq_attacks_churches_reax_sistani
Pilgrim
Posted by: Pilgrim [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 8:48 AM
Son of Infidel,
Sorry for the confusion, but I did not say 80% of Saudis were peace loving muslims; they very well may be, but I have no way of knowing other than by talking to people in the area and asking questions. That was the tail end of a post from someone in the area who should know. I have talked with Saudis who say it is 50%.
I do not minimize the threat the US and the West is under from radical Islam. I take it very seriously which is why I supported the war-to change the face of the ME so Islamists do not continue to grow in numbers as they have done left unchecked for decades.
It is all very well for any of us to thump our chests and say just nuke them. That is never going to happen, nor should it. It then becomes imperative to deal with things in other ways. Yes, we continue hunting down who we can, work within the UN (right-lol), enlist help from other countries and all that stuff, but that is short term. In the long term, the only viable way to protect ourselves is to promote reforms, particularly in the ME. It is happening now, and OBL and the war in Iraq has essentially forced the issue, but it's going to be a slow process.
It would seem many of you here have a problem with Islam; is it Islam that is the problem or those who are radical about it? Sorry, I am a non-practicing Catholic; so don't go there. I am also Republican, so don't waste your breath.
We need to do everything we can to protect ourselves, but I would hope America could come up with something better than just nuke them all.
Posted by: M [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 9:00 AM
BTW, this is the site that I pasted info about 80% of Saudis being "peace-loving". Please note #3; it's worth the time to read thru posts. Not everyone is a boogeyman.
http://www.mahmood.tv/index.php/blog/659
Re(2): Calm down people...
Posted by: Mahmood Al-Yousif on June 19, 2004 03:52 PM
I understand your frustration. Believe me I do, however let me tell you that we (Arabs and Muslims) are even more frustrated with this situation, much more than you can imagine:
1. We have no say in the way our governments are run.
2. We CANNOT (the Arab and Muslim majority) show our sympathies on our cuffs for fear of persecution and execution.
3. For the most part, we don't care about religion, any religion, we have just become to sickened by the crimes perpetrated in religions' name.
4. We cannot even SAY what I have in 3 above for IMMEDIATELY being labeled as heretics, and that will result in just as immediate death penalty for apostasy by our Islamist friends.
5. We crave liberalism, but our liberals are treated like pariahs by our governments who can't seem to decide where their support should be.
6. Our governments cannot show that they want to progress and support liberals for the perceived threat on its existence. However some have done it in varying successes like Turkey and Tunisia.
7. Secularism is like a death penalty to any Arab/Muslim government (almost) and that's why we see the very first thing in any constitution is that it is based on Islam, if a constitution was present in the first place. What happened at the EU last night with Italy and Poland wanting to add "based on Christianity and European culture" just sickened me. Here we are aspiring to separate religion from politics and we see "the first world" countries wanting to impose texts that would take them back a few hundred years.
8. There is real and present danger for anyone and their families should they be seen as opposition in most if not all of our countries.
9. Free thought is not considered a virtue, but insolence.
10. We don't have any freedoms of the press to speak of, hence, they have to toe the official line, and provision of alternate thoughts and tolerance killed at infancy.
11. No Arab/Muslim government enjoys sympathy from their own people. We have learnt to not trust our governments for generations, hence, there is real absence of a sense of patriotism.
12. 11 would lead to not caring about whatever happens in our environment with thoughts ranging from "if it didn't happen to me or my family, I don't care" to "they deserve it, let the government clean up the mess, it's no skin off my nose."
These are some of the feelings I hear when interacting and traveling through the Gulf countries and speaking to other Arabs and Muslims.
I hope you understand the immense frustration we feel. It's not lethargy or not caring for our fellow human being. We do. We feel for everyone, but it is very difficult for an Arab to show emotion because of this ever present fear of state-sponsored-intimidation.
Should we just sit back and give up though? No chance. This situation IS changing to the better. Slowly mind you but is changing.
The irony is however is that Osama bin-Laden has served as a catalyst for this change! We despise what this animal has done for our way of life and reputation, but through his heinous acts it has FORCED change!
So we've back to the beginning of your assumption: Should change be imposed?
I think whether we like it or not it IS being and will continue to be imposed by the "west" and by the likes of bin-Laden. It's how we deal with that change and the opportunities presented by these factors is the question, and I don't have the answer for that one yet.
I believe that maybe there should be another way to impose this change, and that is by exploring partnerships and the world powers providing catalysts for change. Maybe a carrot and a stick scenario is one way: fix up your country or we won't trade with you...
But if we both - as peoples - just get frustrated and start throwing accusations and bombs at each other, we won't be fixing up any mess but adding to it.
Let's partner for peace. We KNOW that we have problems, you KNOW that you have problems, so how about calming down and looking at problems through the thoughts of partnership and try to fix them? Wouldn't that be a catalyst for change for the better?
or am I again just being naive?
Posted by: M [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 9:05 AM
M
for your consideration, here is the simple truth as expressed by Ibn Warraq:
There are moderate Muslims. Islam itself is not and can not be moderate.
Right, or it would take to remove to many verses from the Quran, don't you think so?
Posted by: Nikoz [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 10:20 AM
Furthermore,
how do we tell the wheat from the chaff, that is, distingush Ahl al-Jihad from from Ahl as-Salam?
And let me just once more remind you of Islamic taqiyya - concealment for the good of the Din (faith). Hypocrisy unlimited, in other words.
The problem is that NO Muslims can be trusted in this day and age. The stakes are too high.
Posted by: Nikoz [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 10:28 AM
moslems are the first victims of their ideology.
we can't know what percentage of them are 'radical' or 'moderate', so we need to keep our focus on the ideology.
since the ideology is impossible to change due to its historic and "divine" sanction, what moderate moslems say is irrelevant, since their ideology teaches them to lie to non/moslems.
to achieve total freedom from 'allah's' clutch,
i recommend that moslems receive Jesus Christ as their Saviour: this will cure them of their hatred.
yes i have read 'hatred's kingdom'.
its a helpful book, but like many secular observations: it doesn't go far enough for the solution.
islam will not be reformed:
but moslems can leave it if they choose, even if they live in a closed islamic state like arabia.
they can read a bible online and hear the Gospel message thru the power of the internet.
Posted by: forrestshalom [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 10:41 AM
M, do you really think you can divorce "religion" (i.e. an understanding and affirmation of moral truth) from politics? It's been tried -- in the USSR. In Cambodia. In Vietnam. In China. I'm afraid that law must concern itself with issues of right and wrong and therefore must align itself with principles derived from some source in order to stand. Would you want to live in a state where the only thing that prevented people from doing things was the fear of being caught? Here in the United States, we've had a president who thought that way and it messed us up for eight long years. No more.
As for what faith should we derive our precepts from, we know that atheism and Islam both don't work. Let's look at history to see what does work.
Posted by: NoMoreJihad [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 10:44 AM
Exactly. This continuation of appeasement of Islam is a tired joke and is going to cost too many innocent lives in the United States and the West.
Isn't it clear now, after the attacks on the churches in Iraq, that the Islamists will not stop until this becomes a cut and dried religious war for all involved?
Islam is the enemy. Anyone that that wishes to not be on the wrong side in the coming events can make a choice -- get involved in reforms of Islam to make it a true religion of peace that can exist in the modern world, or failing that, leave Islam or convert to one of the world's truly peaceful major religions like Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism or Buddhism.
The truth hurts.
Posted by: Foehammer [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 10:49 AM
Btw, leaving Islam is not a choice for most of the Muslim world because apostates are dealt with brutally more often than not.
Men are typically executed if apostasy is proven, and the women are beaten senseless until they repent and return to Islam or die from their wounds.
I also do not like anyone talking in terms that secularism does not go far enough. Secularism is what makes Christianity tolerable in our modern culture, lest anyone forgets, it was not so long ago that witches were burned at the stake and non-believers were put on torture wheels in Spain.
Don't start damning secularist ideas as being less wise than Christian ones, or you may very well start sounding like the Taliban yourselves.
Think about that.
God gave us brains to use them, not to live with blinders on.
Posted by: Foehammer [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 10:54 AM
M,
You have stated that you are a Republican, although your comments reflect the thinking of a "liberal" Democrat.Possibly you are a closet case liberal.
Basic "facts" about Islam
Islam is a religion of legalistic demands and merciless vengeance.It's "allged" prophet,Mohammed,(an avowed pedophile and child molester),when leading the Muslim armies in their conquests gave the non-believers three choices: 1) profess the faith of Islam,2) pay tribute or 3) die by the sword.
Islam is an ideology of intolorance,hate,subjugation and vindictive violence.
The Qu'an has no moral center,it preaches militant hate and death and destruction to the Infidel.
Islam, over the past 14 centuries has had a long and bloody history and it is not about to reform it's self now.In fact, with the spread of Wahabbism, Islam has only become more violent.
Your sanctimonious and appeasing posture, quite frankly makes me sick.
It is this very thinking that allowed Nazism and Fascism to spread.
The very center of Islam's core is evil.
History has taught us that evil can not be appeased, nor compromised with and never negotiated with.
The only way to deal with evil, is to destroy it!
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 11:33 AM
Son of Infidel,
I am a 53 year old mother of 3 married to an exMarine; please do no insult me by calling me a closet liberal. But if I were one, that is none of your business.
I fully understand the message regarding infidels in the Qu'an, so spare me your copy and paste skills. Are their muslims that practice Islam to the letter, certainly, and they are the enemy. I submit there are many other muslims that do not and are no different than a Catholic who believes in God but has an abortion. Your failure to accept that fact and call for their destruction along with everyone else is no different than OBL and company. No doubt God would see you burning in hell a long time for that one; you and OBL will have ALOT to talk about. Don't ever take the moral high ground with me, cause you are simply WRONG.
Posted by: M [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 12:10 PM
Resister writes:
"Witness, your comments about living in perpetual fear, Im sorry if you feel this way, but to live in fear is no way to live at all. Until I start seeing ragheads in the street with guns or car bombs-im not gonna fear shit-especially not with Mr. Smith and Mr. Wesson in my belt. "
Witness responds:
Resister, go ahead and light up a smoke while I pour you another drink. Obviously, you are a West Point graduate.
No doubt you have the bad-guys on the run!
Given your strategic and tactical insights, I'm sure we'll have the troops "home by Christmas." With generals like you on our side, we in the west can sleep better tonight -- nuke suticases or not.
Pligram writes:
"The word "Allah" is just the Arabic word for "God." In the Arabic & English Bibles I obtained from the International Bible Society at the opening of the Gospel according to John, for example, the Arabic text uses "Allah."
Witness response
Pilgram, yours is the more liberal interpretation that I have been privy to over the years. A more conservative definition holds that the title "God" is attributed to a specific deity with unique attributes and who claims exclusive title to the term "God."
As such, the dieties "Allah" and "Yahweh" are separate and distinct persona who lay compeating claim to the tile "God."
Son of Infidel wrties:
Below are some breif facts about the Crusades.
The first Crusade began in 1096 and they lasted approximately 250 years.During this time there were many atocties, torturing,pillaging and massacring of civilians all in the name of Christ. Many of these victims were Byzantine Christians as well as Jews that were slaugthered.
This rage continued across Europe to Constantinople where in 1204 the city was pillaged and looted of most of its great treasures.
Unfortunately your reference to the Crusades was a poor choice as this was a dark period for the world and a stain on Christianity."
Witness responds:
The atrocities that you attribute to Christianity are sidebars in every conflagration. There are always innocents that forefit life and limb in the ugly business we call "war."
My allusion was to the over-arching response by the Christian West to the common threat posed by Islamists who started the invasions in the first place. The unity of purpose was a consideration for both sides during the period -- to wit: "destroy them." Granted there must have been nuasances as there always will be in these matters, but the commonality of purpose is an intriging feature of the crusade period.
In this context, my observation is that today the commonality of purpose on the part of the west is lacking. This to our detriment.
But with Resister leading the charge, I'm sure we're in good hands -- no?
To M:
I feel your pain to coin a phrase. You are not in a position that I envy and suggest that you need to make some very difficult choices. No doubt that you realize that already.
So than, what to do? God knows.
Posted by: witness [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 12:12 PM
M,
To compare the Islamo-terrorist-scum to people that recognize the real threat that they pose and understand what is necassry to deal with this threat, is idiotic and ignorant.
Futhermore, I am not impressed that you are married to an ex marine and to say that I will burn in hell is an over emotional reaction on your part.
If we follow your advice we will either all be dead or bowing to Mecca.
PS: I do not "copy and paste" I use my brain, a part of your body in need of great improvement.
PSS:I still say that you are a closet case "liberal"
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 12:37 PM
From the Voice of America:
Iraqi Church Bombings Seen as Attempt to Split Religious Groups
Several of Iraq's top religious leaders have denounced Sunday's deadly bombings of five Christian churches in Baghdad and the northern city of Mosul. Iraqi government officials say those who attacked the churches were trying to drive a wedge between Christians and Muslims...
follow the link for more...
http://www.voanews.com/article.cfm?objectID=1DBE848E-D990-4A28-872081B3F11FF9E5
Posted by: al-Canine [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 12:41 PM
Here, from a former advisor to the US Department of State, is the truth about the church bombings.
Allahu akbar
Posted by: Reza [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 12:44 PM
witness,
Your interpertation of the Crusades is in error, and purely self serving.
Do some "research" and you will know the "truth".
"Like it or not, we are going to have to learn to live in perpetual fear like the Israelis"
Based on your above statement, I suggest that you get some tranquilizers to take while you are cowaring in the corner.
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 12:57 PM
With regard to crusading
I'm writing my degree on the First Crusade, specifically the relationship of the Franks and Eastern Christians.
Witness is totally right about the common purpose notion. Son of Infidel gets it all wrong. I'll presume to explain.
The crusading ideal and the real backbone of the First Crusade was a war of liberation.
Those who took the cross after pope Urban II's mighty sermon at Clermont went off to set free the Holy City from the Muslim yoke. Along with that, the pope urged the Franks to help break the chains of fellow Christians in the East, whose lands had been laid waste by the infidels.
And verily, this spirit of unity and belief in God's support was to result in the Crusade's overwhelming success.
It is also noteworthy that the vast majority of the indigenous Christians proved supportive and helpful, take for example the Armenians of Edessa or the Maronites of Lebanon.
The eventual fall of the crusader states stemmed from the inability to cooperate with Byzantium and the mutual hostility initially triggered by Bohemond of Otranto, that's true.
For more information see the faximile of M. W. Baldwin's excellent account.
http://libtext.library.wisc.edu/HistCrusades/
Posted by: Nikoz [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 12:57 PM
Nikoz,
Please enlighten me, were there any Jews or Christians killed by the Crusaders, because if you had read my previous comments that is the point I was making.
"Needless to say, Peter's Quest was doomed. They behaved poorly along the route, thieving food and ransacking homes for supplies. The worst was the persecution of the Jews before even leaving Europe".
"The Jewish peoples had lived in relative quiet amongst the Christians up to this point. Though not accepted in the Communities, they were tolerated and business was conducted in a relatively civilized manor".
"The Jewish peoples had their own communities and though they were looked down upon, they were not opposed till now. Peter's army lacked funds. It was suggested that if the Crusaders could kill the enemies of God abroad, then what's to stop them at home. Let it be noted that the Church did not condone this. Bishops locally preached against this, and some were attacked for their preaching. The Bishop of Spier saved many lives, but at Warms the Bishop was driven from his home and the Jews he sheltered were slaughtered. Same thing at the town of Mainz. The Bishops could not stop Peter's army. They continued their rage across Europe to Constantinople".
"Arriving there, Alexis didn't know what to make of them. Not wanting them to stay to cause further trouble in his city, he made arrangements to have them shipped over the Bosphorus river to Anatolia. Five days after they arrived, in July 1096, they were moved to Turkey. Most never saw the Grand city of Constantinople much to Alexis' relief".
"Once in Anatolia, Peter's followers felt it was time to start Crusading in earnest, torturing, pillaging and massacring indiscriminately. However, as it turned out, most of their victims were Byzantine Christians who lived in and around Nicaea".
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 1:19 PM
Witness,
Thanks for the concern, but I have been visiting JW for a very long time and understand the intolerance of some of the thought police here. My mother always taught me to do the right thing even if it hurts, and I am way too old to be told what I should believe.
While I might dream of mining the borders (I really mean that), stopping all immigration, deport all foreigners, and stop trading with the world and put Americans back to work being selfsufficient, that is never going to happen. Neither is nuking Mecca or destroying Islam. What we are going to kill billions of muslims now (good with the bad)because they practice some form of Islam? Don't think so. So others can rant on and make themselves feel pretty important by accomplish nothing. I would no sooner buy into that crap than I would with what OBL is selling. Wrong is wrong, pure and simple. We all have choices, and we can be part of the problem or part of the solution.
Posted by: M [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 1:39 PM
Nikoz,
Here is more "factual" information about the Crusades.
Good luck with your writing.
"The Seljuk Turks gained control of Jerusalem in 1071. Seljuk rule of Palestine lasted less than 30 years. In 1098, the Fatimids, based in Egypt, took advantage of the Seljuk struggles with the Christian crusaders from Europe. They allied themselves with the Crusaders and captured Jerusalem, Jaffa and other parts of Palestine in 1098. However, the Crusaders broke the alliance and invaded Palestine about a year later, capturing Jaffa and Jerusalem in 1099. A great slaughter of the Jewish and Muslim defenders followed, and no Jews were allowed to live in Jerusalem. The crusaders held the city until 1187, when the Muslim ruler Saladin attacked Palestine and took control of Jerusalem. The Crusaders held a dwindling area along the coast of Palestine, under treaty with Saladin. However, the Crusaders broke the treaty with Saladin and later treaties as successive crusades tried to recapture Jerusalem and were defeated. The Crusaders were finally evicted with the capture of Acre by Muslim forces in 1291. During the post-crusade period, Crusaders raided the coast of Palestine frequently. To minimize the gains from these raids, the Muslim rulers pulled back population from the coasts and practiced a scorched earth policy. The result was to greatly depopulate and impoverish the coast of Palestine for hundreds of years".
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 1:45 PM
Son of Infidel
Touche, but that was the so-called Poor People's Crusade, a false start of what the pope had envisaged. I am perfectly aware of the atrocities committed by the Germans under Emich von Leiningen and Peter the Hermit's rabble.
The reasons were these: a really bad ignorance of the crowd and the long-awaited desire for plunder.
But this wasn't the First Crusade, I'd like you to note. I'm in no way advocating this ill-conceived enterprise that predated the main expedition.
Secondly, about the 'factual information' you've just provided. It's inaccurate I have to say.
The Crusaders and the Fatimids were never able to conclude that treaty of partitioning Syria. The Egyptians took an uncompromising stance that Jerusalem should belong to them. So it made the treaty unacceptable for the Franks whose divinely sanctioned goal the Holy City was.
If you wish I could look up where I picked that in Baldwin's 'The First Hundred Years'.
Moreover, the Crusaders first offered the Fatimid governor to surrender before finally assaulting the city in July 1099.
Also pay heed that the Muslims had taken care to banish all Christians before the Franks were there.
If you have any criticism of the First Crusade proper, you're welcome to bring it up.
Posted by: Nikoz [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 2:04 PM
And just another point.
The Muslims used to hate us just in the same way they do today. Every single conquest of theirs was reckoned divinely justified. As regards the Franks who set out to recapture what the Muslims had no rights for, Ibn al-Athir (a prominent Arabic source of the late 12th c.) garbles facts and vilifies them as best he can.
E.g.: 'The capture of Jerusalem by the Franj, la'ana-hum allah' (may allah curse them).
Posted by: Nikoz [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 2:14 PM
Son of Infidel writes:
witness,
Your interpertation of the Crusades is in error, and purely self serving.
Witness responds:
I see. How exactly than am I being served?
Son of Infidel writes:
Do some "research" and you will know the "truth".
Witness responds:
Ouch! I have done considerable "research" for many years on this and many subjects. However, which "truth" would you like me to know exactly?
Quoting Witness, Son of Infidel writes:
"Like it or not, we are going to have to learn to live in perpetual fear like the Israelis"
Based on your above statement, I suggest that you get some tranquilizers to take while you are cowaring in the corner.
Witness responds:
Perhaps you can belly on up to the bar with resister over yonder and light up a smoke while I pour both of you a couple more drinks.
I enjoy learning from scholars like yourself. Perhaps, if all the rest of us plebecites just listened to your disserations, the world would be a better, happier, place.
Obviously you are either a Harvard or a Yale man -- maybe even Oxford. Let us bow to your knowledge!
The Isrealies are living in fear every single day but I don't have the impression that they are "cowering in any corner."
No doubt that your battlefied experience has taught you that "fear" is a necessary thing that keeps you alive and prevents you from making fatal mistakes while the lead flies -- so that eventually you can liquidate your enemy.
But you are a military super-hero no doubt, so if you would deign to dispense your pontifications on the matter, the rest of us will sit on the edge of our seats and listen and try to learn from you
Posted by: witness [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 2:19 PM
Nikoz,
I think you have missed my point that the Crusaders slaugthered many innocent Jews as well as other non- Muslims, as such the Crusades were a dark period in history and a stain on Christianity.
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 2:22 PM
M writes:
"Wrong is wrong, pure and simple."
Witness responds:
Pardon me if I don't ask you to belly up to the bar with the other two guests.
I'm not sure they would be fit company for you.
Nevertheless, I raise my glass in a toast to your good health.
Posted by: witness [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 2:27 PM
Witness
You have a point here. Because the time is probably near when we'll have to struggle and fight side by side.
I recently came across an Aussie's suggestion that we start learning ninjutsu to be able to defend ourselves against the mussies. He meant it:)
Posted by: Nikoz [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 2:27 PM
Son of Infidel
I've heard someone say that war has an ugly face.
I sincerely condemn these massacres.
On the other hand, you seem to have missed Witness's point about a common purpose, or unity as I see it.
That's what helped the Crusaders attain their goal and flush the Muslims out of the lands they'd subjugated under the 'rightly-guided' caliph 'Omar (may allah's piss be upon him).
Posted by: Nikoz [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 2:34 PM
witness,
"Like it or not, we are going to have to learn to live in perpetual fear like the Israelis"
Based on your above statement, I suggest that you get some tranquilizers to take while you are cowaring in the corner.
"The Isrealies are living in fear every single day but I don't have the impression that they are "cowering in any corner."
Next time read my comments correctly.
I did not state that the Israelies cowar in corners, only pretentious, pompous, intellectual jackasses like you do.
PS: Thanks for the invitation for the cocktail, but I don't drink.
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 2:37 PM
In my opinion it isn´t a good idea, speaking about crusades, well the crusades were a great mistake, totally in cases like the crusade against Bizance but It happened almost 800 years, we deserve to speak more current things because the yihad against the armenian people, one million of people killed, the slavism of serbian, romanian and bulgarian people for the Ottoman Empire and killings like the 1071 of the muslims yihad against hindus, that there are infidels and not to deserve the dhirmi, only have the right to decide how to die.
In these moments where we live the protestants and catholics don´t kill each other, the orthodox don´t have so hate to the other christians groups( the exception is Russia), and in the Western there are a lot of freedom, but in the muslim world there aren´t freedom now.
The men and women are the same?, if the answer is yes, the religious freedom have to be imposed in this countries and in the communist, but there are a lot of people that don´t agree with this, my question is ?
What is most important Democracy or Freedom Religion?, Because in almost all muslim countries the freedom religion isn´t a popular concept, greetings
Posted by: Franze [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 3:04 PM
Franze,
Thank you for your comments.
I agree with you 100%.
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 3:18 PM
Can we focus on current events?
Posted by: Bob Owens [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 3:19 PM
FYI
IRAQ THE MODEL
Monday, August 02, 2004
This is a trap.
Yesterday’s attacks on the churches were not very unexpected because the terrorists consider destroying this country their primary mission. They have attacked all Iraqis without discrimination, they murdered the She’at Muslims near their holy shrines, they attacked Sunni mosques, they attacked the IP near their stations and they assassinated our politicians and leaders and they will keep trying to attack anyone and anything to stop us from building this country but they will not defeat us, unless we submit to their evil plans; something we will never do.
I’ve tried to ask as many Iraqis as I could about their feelings and all Iraqis I met showed anger, contempt and bitterness about what happened but noone gave signs of despair.
I’ve watched many reactions on the internet and I found that many people considered what happened an aggression against Christians (and that this is what the terrorists want) while we in Iraq see it as a crime against Iraqis and this reaction is the last thing they want.
However, how the West views this is more important than our reactions as the message this time was sent to the West not to us.
This time they chose to attack what they think is a soft target and I believe that their choice is based on two sick wishes:
The first one: they think that by terrorizing the Iraqi Christian community the Iraqi Christians will get panicked and choose to leave Iraq and thus creating a situation of insecurity and distrust among Iraqis.
The second one: with these attacks they want to drag the West to believe that this a war on Christianity
and that it came as a reaction to the “war on Islam”. They want to give their war a religious shape to inflame religious sensitivities between Christians and Muslims and they want the Muslims in the West to be persecuted so that they can use it to make simple minded Muslims believe that the war on terror is a crusade.
I can say that I’m sure that the 1st one will not find a measurable success because as I mentioned earlier; in Iraq we think about the latest attacks just the same way we do about any previous ones.
As for the 2nd one, well... it’s up to you in the West and you can determine the way it affects you.
You need to be far-sighted when you decide how to respond to this test and I believe you can do that. So please, don’t fall in this trap.
Posted by: M [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 3:22 PM
More on church bombings from Sam.
Monday, August 02, 2004The Ugly Barbarism
The news about Zarqawi was just rumours! Al Zarqawi thugs carried out one of the most barbaric ugly acts against the worship places in Iraq. After the attacks against the Shiaa holy places in which hundreds were massacred he and his thugs directed their devilish intention yesterday against the Iraqi Christians' holy and historical places (Churches) in Baghdad and Mosel.
The aim is not to try to knock the Iraqi unity only but to kill as many as they can among the Iraqis who are not belonging to their doctrine of Wahabism and Salafism. The last two of course are two faces for one coin monetized in Saudi Arabia.
We saw that ugly face not against the US targets alone but in Afghanistan where Talabans trying to convert the people there into monkeys living in a jungle. They not only hate the others who don't think like them but they hate the history which is not suiting their retarded mentality. They started destroying the historical places in Najad and Hijaz (Saudi Arabia now). They destroyed all the historic places belonged to the first Muslims and Arabs!
The Christians of Najran came to see Prophet Mohammad for a dialogue and it was a Sunday! They asked the Prophet that they would like to do their prayer and he offered them his Mosque to use it for their prayer! This is the real Islam not Islam of the Mohammad Bin Abd Al Wahab which gave birth to Bin Laden and Zarqawi thugs.
In Iraq we are one nation, Christians, Sabians, Muslims as Sunni & Shia, and other religions. The Churches which were hit by the barbaric thugs are not holy places for the Christians alone but they are holy places for all of the Iraqis irrespective of their religions. They are holy for being used by human being and by Iraqis our brothers and sisters. They are now holy places for every Iraqi!
Our brothers and sisters who have been killed in the attacks of the Iraqi Churches are not only Christians but Muslims as well. The Iraqi blood mixed together to tell the thugs that we are one body and the foreign bodies are them. Sooner the Iraqi body will expose and destroy them for ever.
Posted by: M [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 3:25 PM
More about church attacks.
Monday, August 02, 2004
“Beware the wrath of the patient when finally aroused”
Hi,
The atrocity has backfired. If the intent of the criminals was to incite sectarian violence between Moslems and Christians; then they have achieved exactly the opposite. In my living memory I have never witnessed such upsurge of sympathy for the Christian community as what is happening right now. The people are really aroused now. The new Iraqi TV stations (including Al Sharqiya) are doing non-stop coverage of the event. Everybody has to proclaim his denunciation in no uncertain terms, even the hypocrites perhaps with some shy and stammering insinuations of the usual charges that perhaps it was the Americans or the Jews etc., sounding unconvinced themselves of these slanders; because even an absolute imbecile can easily guess who is behind this – and in fact, I don’t think anybody has any serious doubt about the identity of the perpetrators.
These hate creatures are beyond redemption. We can perhaps talk about dealing with the root causes of terrorism etc. etc., but this will apply to preventing future growth of the cancer, but the present cancerous cells are incurable. The only fitting solution for these is amputation.
Perhaps the most fitting solution is to prepare a great big pond of “Ordure", to put it genteelly, and drown them all in it – Bullshit to Bullshit and Excrement to Excrement, and Good Riddance for ever, brothers - beards, turbans and all; and we don't think we are going to miss you much.
And then, we shall all live happily ever after.
Salaam
Sunday, August 01, 2004
In the Name of God the Compassionate, the Merciful
The God of All
This is the limit. Ever since Mesopotamia came into being from the very first birth of civilization, never has terror of this kind been known. A coordinated attack on six Christian churches at the time of Sunday prayers, to the horror of unsuspecting worshipers: unbelievable act of cowardice and treachery that is unprecedented in all our six thousand years of history. And what scenes! makes the blood boil and freeze at the same time. Elderly men and women and young ones of our dear Iraqi Christian community with bloodied faces coming out of their hour of peaceful worship; dazed and unbelieving; and deaths, and destruction of some of the most ancient and historical Christian churches in the World. Never in our whole history has there been such an attack on the Christian community in particular, for it is a peaceful and well beloved of all Iraqis; and besides, its members are the remaining descendants of the original ancient Mesopotamians; the Chaldeans, the Assyrians, the Babylonians etc. etc.
What can we say? One is speechless, numb, shocked, bleeding internally, and angry; oh, so angry, never been angrier in a whole lifetime.
Whoever did this and whoever organized and financed this; whoever remotely tries to find excuses and justification for this, whoever even keeps quiet or is indifferent to this here and everywhere, in the East or in the West; must be pronounced excommunicate from membership of the sensible human race. All those calling for retreat and submitting to the intimidation of these monstrous zombies are traitors and cowards and will not reap but their own destruction when horror comes to their own front doors. Those who think that turning their backs and escaping the confrontation to barricade themselves in their secluded islands, is going to save their skins, are in profound and fatal delusion.
The horror will come to your own cities and your own houses. The time to fight is now and here; and the security of the Iraqis and your own security is one and indivisible.
Humans of the World: Remember.
Posted by: M [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 3:33 PM
Son of Infidel writes:
August 01, 2004
Bomb blasts rock Iraqi churches
But of course, this conflict has nothing to do with religion. From the BBC, with thanks to Susan:
The first two blasts happened near churches in the busy Karada shopping area of Baghdad, sending a plume of smoke across the neighbourhood.
At least two people are reported to have been killed in what appears to be a new tactic by insurgents.
A third blast was reported a short time later in Mosul, where a police station had been bombed earlier in the day.
Witnesses said a car bomb detonated outside an Armenian church as an evening service was getting under way.
Shattered glass
It blew out stained glass windows, and scattered pieces of hot metal across the street. The wreckage of at least three burned out cars was left in its wake.
"I saw injured women and children and men, the church's glass shattered everywhere. There's glass all over the floor," Juliette Agob, who was inside the church at the time, was quoted by the Associated Press as saying.
Ten minutes later, as the emergency services raced to the scene, a second blast went off outside a Syrian Catholic church some 400 metres from the first church.
An ambulance driver said two people had been killed.
At around the same time, a suspected car bomb went off outside a church in Mosul.
Posted at August 1, 2004 12:56 PM
Comments
(Note: Comments on articles are unmoderated, and do not necessarily reflect the views of Jihad Watch or Robert Spencer. Comments that are off-topic, offensive, slanderous, or otherwise annoying may be summarily deleted. However, the fact that particular comments remain on the site IN NO WAY constitutes an endorsement by Robert Spencer of the views expressed therein.)
I am an Iraqi christian, and i swear, i wish the USA would airlift every single Iraqi christian, and drop them on Dearnborn michigan. I wish more "christians" in the west would speak out about what happens to us.
Ps. Christians are harmless, thats why sadam used use to cook his food.
Posted by: islamwatcher at August 1, 2004 01:14 PM
Does anyone know the name or other specific information about any of the three churches mentioned in the news item?
Pilgrim
Posted by: Pilgrim at August 1, 2004 01:14 PM
Hey Catholics:
Reza's calling you "muslims" over on the Dhimmi Watch July 31 "Tariq Ramadan . . . " thread.
Posted by: CGW at August 1, 2004 01:21 PM
OT:
Great article by a CANADIAN, a must-read.
GOD BLESS AMERICA
Posted by: CGW at August 1, 2004 01:31 PM
Hey folks:
MEMRI reports as follows regarding the Saudi terror suspect who turned himself in under the Amnesty:
http://www.memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD75404
A few weeks after Al-Omari was turned in, the Saudi newspapers reported that the Saudi authorities had paid off Al-Omari's debts. According to Al-Watan, Othman Al-Omari's mother expressed her "gratitude and appreciation of Prince Muhammad Bin Naif for his noble initiative to pay off the debts of her son, who recently turned himself in to the Saudi authorities." The mother recounted that "Prince Muhammad Bin Naif contributed the entire sum, totaling 170,000 SR [$45,300], as well as a grant of 30,000 SR [$8,000] to Al-Omari's family. In addition, a monthly stipend of 3,000 SR [$800] will be paid to Othman Al-Omari's children, as well as a salary of 2,000 SR [$530] to Othman Al-Omari himself." [3]
And more recently, they have posted that the Saudi Gazette has a message of thanks from Al-Omari's mother in it. The Saudi Gazette is and English language propaganda arm of the Saudis. So, of course, your humble researcher attempted to find out if what MEMRI had posted was true. And, it must be true, because the Gazette has blocked access to every issue of the Gazette for the whole month of July.
Posted by: Mentat at August 1, 2004 01:36 PM
In 1933, five months after the British left, and having promised not to harm minorities, Muslims in Iraq attacked and murdered tens of thousands of helpless Assyrian Christians. Some say the figure was "only" 70,000. William Saroyan, of Armenian ancestry, wrote about the massacres; he called his book "70,000 Assyrians." Perhaps it is time to reprint it, along with all the eyewitness testimonies of Armenian survivors of the attacks, not based on ethnicity but rather on hatred of the "giavour" or Infidel (or "Christiand dog") which in 1894-95 and to much more murderous effect, in 1915 and the years following, by Turks, and Kurds, and even by the Arabs of the Syrian Desert who would pick off Armenian women and girls as they made their way to the relative safety of Christian communities in such places as Haleb (Aleppo) and Beirut.
The attacks on Christian churches, and on Chistians in Iraq, is simply one more chapter in the long history, recorded by Bat Ye'or in "The Decline of Eastern Christianity Under Islam," a book that should be read by policymakers, and by all those who take an interest in what Islam holds in store for Infidels.
And, of course,one need only look at the slow asphyxiation of the Copts in Egypt, of the once-thriving Christian civilization of North Africa (home of both Tertullian and St. Augustine), of formerly-Christian Byzantium with its vast riches and advanced civilization, of Christians today anywhere that Muslims predominate -- in Pakisan and the Sudan and Indonesia -- or even where they form a minority sufficiently strong to feel it can go on the attack (as in the Philippines, and in Bosnia and Kosovo).
How much evidence, from the texts of Islam, and from the behavior of Muslims through time and space, does one need? What further evidence does one require?
Posted by: Hugh at August 1, 2004 02:06 PM
islamwatcher,
You said, "I wish more 'christians' in the west would speak out about what happens to us."
Where would I obtain information about what is happening to you? I can read Arabic poorly, French better, and English best. I can speak Arabic somewhat better than I read it.
To whom should I speak out?
If you wish to contact me directly, use mt1016b-tango@yahoo.com
Pilgrim
Posted by: Pilgrim at August 1, 2004 02:10 PM
This was mentioned in passing on a local chicago news talk show, just before the cut to something more important -- sports!
It is sad because the priorities of the American media are incomprehensible to me.
Now if this were a mosque, well now, that would be a hate crime and the media would go nuts!
Posted by: witness at August 1, 2004 02:26 PM
Wait a minute, according to that NYT beacon of secular platitudes, Nicholas Kristof, believing Christians are equally, a danger to civilization as we in the West know it, as believing Muslims are.
So what if the Koran sounds more like Mein Kempf than the Bible, so what if the word "Islam" literally translates into "submission", peace thru conquest. So what if the more violent passages of the Koran abrogate the earlier tolerant passages. So what if even moderate Muslims living the US talk on their blogs about the coming Islamic caliphate, and a Muslim in the white house.
We need to turn the discussion to True & False. Was the emperor of Japan, God? NO. Because the Japanese sincerely believed he was, did that make it so? NO. Does Allah, who needs the constant killing off of unbelievers, sound like he loves the little children? I don't think so. Instead he encourages his Islamic followers to raise their own children to become living bombs. Too, its their only assurance of Salvation with a lust-filled heaven in return. Does Allah sound anything like God to you?
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. -1 John 4:1
Posted by: daughter of patriots at August 1, 2004 02:31 PM
To Islamwatcher:
I am catholic too, spanish, but catholic, am very sad for what was happening, can you explain to us, if the situation for christians is better than before, and I would like to say that christians iraquis dont´have to leave Iraq, I dont´want a islamic republic, the christians in Iraq and like other countries are very culte and without them the arabic countries and non-arabic muslims countries would be in the Stone Age.
Greetings and my prayings for this christian and catholic people murdered in the name of Islam.
Posted by: Franze at August 1, 2004 02:52 PM
islamwatcher and pilgrim,
The Voice of the Martyrs is a non-profit, interdenominational organization with
a vision for aiding Christians around the world who are being persecuted for their beliefs.
VOM was founded by the Reverand Richard Wurmbrand, who spent 14 years in Romanian prisons.He wrote a book called Tortured for Christ as well as others.
Below is the link to their website.I hope this will be of help.
http://www.persecution.com/
Posted by: Son of Infidel at August 1, 2004 03:05 PM
Pilgrim, thankyou for the solidarity, God bless all of you. Among iraqis the news travels fast, and through our media locals.
For western people, you need to read between the lines, as sad as it seems, they will cover it breifly. The best thing is to write to your congress and politicians, and ask them to forward the immigration process of the middle east christians. Remeber, muslims would arent refugues when they leave their islamic utopias.
Thankyou everyone, please keep us in prayer.
Posted by: islamwatcher at August 1, 2004 03:07 PM
Islamwatcher,
I am an American Christian and have already been praying for Iraqi Christians and am part of the Voice of the Martyr supporters. My first thought when I heard about the church blasts was that we should send planes to pick up all the Iraqi Christians and resettle them in the United States. If our FBI needs translators, why not the Iraqi Christians. Please keep posting here so we know how things are going. I will be contacting my govt officials about the plight of Iraqi Christians tomorrow. Be strong and courageous. Remember what Peter wrote about:
12Dear friends, do not be surprised at the painful trial you are suffering, as though something strange were happening to you. 13But rejoice that you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when His glory is revealed.
Jesus has already overcome the world and is with you as you go through the fire. I would prefer that all Christians in Muslim countries would come here to the U.S. if that were possible...because the judgement of the Islamic nations is at hand; Muslims are not fighting us, they are fighting Jesus since Christ lives in us. Their time is short. Remember Psalm 2 and Psalm 37. Don't be discouraged, we will see the day when every Muslim knee will bend to Jesus and every Muslim will confess that He is Lord not their false deity...we will even see the false prophet of Islam and OBL bowing to Jesus before Jesus removes them from us forever.
Remembering you in prayer and asking for your protection and deliverance!
Posted by: Abby at August 1, 2004 03:36 PM
this would be a great opportunity for 'brother' bush
our 'christian' president to demonstrate his faith:
evacuate all professing christians out of iraq and bring them to the usa.
(but i won't hold my breath on it)
by the way i came across an excellent article by
hugh fitzgerald entitled
'islam for the perplexed'
http://mailman.io.com/pipermail/freemanlist/2004-July/002457.html
Posted by: forrestshalom at August 1, 2004 04:04 PM
The sad thing is that tomorrow, the entire arab media will be describing these bombings as the work of Zionists/Mossad/Jews/Coalition Forces. A new conspiracy will be afoot.
I agree with everyone: Let's get the Christians out now!
Posted by: 3812Michelle at August 1, 2004 04:16 PM
Later reports say that six churches, not three, were attacked.
Pilgrim
Posted by: Pilgrim at August 1, 2004 04:18 PM
Forrestshalom,
If the President of the United States was a Jew, what actions would he take to help other Jews out side of the US.
I am geting a bit tired of your biased anti-Christian/Bush Rhetoric.
Futhermore, the Bush Administration has been very supportive of "Israel", more so than previous Administrations, MR. "Shalom"
You seem to have some type of issue with Christianty.
"lets face the TRUTH".
"the west: led by 'christian' america is in an alliance with the muslims".
"the war against 'terrorism' is only a ploy".
Posted by: forrestshalom at July 30, 2004 11:46 AM
Posted by: Son of Infidel at August 1, 2004 05:22 PM
I am in canada, and i am going to be writing to my politicians to forward some of these people in. Let me tell you this, muslims, like the leeches they are, do pose as christians when they want to get to western countries, and many western immigration officials do ask them to recite certain prayers (this has happened to much of my family)
I press my american brothers and sisters to do the same, or any westerners for that matter.
I can remember seeing pics and reading about how Israel airlifted the remaining jews in iraq to safety, i wish the U.S. could do this.
God bless the U.S.A.
Posted by: islamwatcher at August 1, 2004 05:23 PM
islamwatcher,
Here is the US "all" politicians play the game of "politics" and as such it is unlikely and "unfortunate" that any action will be taken to airlift Christians out of Iraq or any other place in the world.
At this time George Bush is the best option we have.Until there is a better one, I shall support him.
The Voice of the Martyrs is a good organization.I recommend that you contact them.
May the grace and peace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you evermore.
Son of Infidel
Posted by: Son of Infidel at August 1, 2004 06:18 PM
the war against islam will not be won by killing
a few or alot of muslims here and there.
it will be won once the ideology/religion is identified and dispatched. something that bush can't
see.
i don't think that this war will ulimately be won by humans, as it is diaobolical(satanic:hence spiritual
in nature).
a jewish american president? good idea. hopefully he would help his fellow jews in trouble like sharon
and israel does.
church going clinton and now bush has not lifted a finger to help any professing christian in muslim lands.
a HUGE difference! :)
Posted by: forrestshalom at August 1, 2004 06:25 PM
Just look at the climate of fear these barbarians have thrust our way of life into: "Hercules" police on library steps in NYC armed like soldiers.
Should we accept this or should we fight?
It is time to hold Islam to account for perpetuating this climate of hate.
Are you reading this, Saudi Arabia?
Are you reading this, mullahs in Iran?
Are you reading this, Syrian jihadists?
Are you reading this, Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt?
Welcome to the New Crusade.
America once had a climate where no Communist was welcome. Let us now allow no Muslim here that condones "Jihad." Reform or be expelled. That's the only wisdom I can see for dealing with Islam in the United States.
Al Qaeda -- attack us if you will, but be forwarned now -- the climate in the United States is like the foundering of your twisted cult on the razors edge and whichever way you push us it will cut badly for you.
Posted by: Foehammer at August 1, 2004 06:36 PM
I remember being very excited when I discovered VOM. Their materials are very professional and it seemed they had some good projects and actions going.
Over the year or so that I received their materials I formed an impression that I am posting here in order that it may be corrected if it is wrong. My impression was that VOM concentrated almost exclusively on Protestant Christians, especially Evangelicals. The item I remember -- but this is only my memory, and may well be selective or fallible! -- was an item on some persecutions on Cyprus, and Orthodox Christians weren't mentioned at all (either as having been persecuted or even as part of the scenery). FYI, I am Orthodox Christian.
Nonetheless, VOM is the first place I would try to get to notice what is happening to Christians in Iraq. And for all I know they've already done articles on it. :-)
Pilgrim
Posted by: Pilgrim at August 1, 2004 06:37 PM
Here is a possible resource but I know nothing about them so please don't flame me, just enlighten me.
Middle East Council of Churches
http://www.mecchurches.org/
Pilgrim
Posted by: Pilgrim at August 1, 2004 06:42 PM
an iraq (babylon) empty of jews?
i think this is highly significant prophetically.
during the great tribulation the jews are warned to flee mystery babylon.
obviously jews aren't returning to literal babylon/iraq soon.
my leading (in fact only) candidate for the accursed
"mystery babylon" is america.
america is the largest outpost of diaspora jews in the world: about 6 million.
God warns them to 'come out of her (mystery babylon)
before the final blows of judgement fall.
personally i think it is an islamic nuclear attack...
Posted by: forrestshalom at August 1, 2004 06:44 PM
And here is the only list of Baghdad Christian churches I've been able to find. I don't know how old it is. It may help identify the churches attacked today.
http://www.chaldeansonline.net/church/christian.html
Pilgrim
Posted by: Pilgrim at August 1, 2004 06:45 PM
as for the usa or bush being 'friends' with israel:
I DOUBT IT! this would be a funny statement if it were not so tragic and full of dire consequences.
how can the usa be the FRIENDS of both saudi arabia and israel?
the west led by the usa has armed the muslim world
and they in turn are using them on us.
another analogy from the book of daniel chapter 2:
iron/clay
iron:western arms and technology
clay:muslim oil
hint: "a'rav"
Posted by: forrestshalom at August 1, 2004 06:58 PM
Iraqi Christians of whatever denomination,come and join your brothers and sisters in the West.
We will welcome you with open arms. Apply as a persecuted minority for residence in New Zealand.
Posted by: Morgane at August 1, 2004 07:00 PM
Forrestshalom,
Israel is a "Jewish State" and was created for the preservation and continuance of the Jewish people.
Ezekiel 11:17
17 Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.
The United States is a nation of many faiths.
If President Bush were to bring persecuted Christians from other parts of the world to this country, or for that matter if any other President were to do this, they would be obligated to do the same for people of other faiths.
As such your previous comments are in error.
However I do agree with you concerning the diabolical "evil" of Islam.
The prophesy of the Book of Revelation will be fulfilled.
Posted by: Son of Infidel at August 1, 2004 07:01 PM
clarification:
as for the usa or bush being 'friends' with israel:
I DOUBT IT! this would be a funny statement if it were not so tragic and full of dire consequences.
-------------
i meant to say 'tragically false' in the above statement.
Posted by: forrestshalom at August 1, 2004 07:02 PM
There is an inherentl differerence between Middle eastern Muslims and Middle Eastern Christians who liv ein the West.
And everywhere the story is the same.....Its the Muslims who cause the most trouble, show no respect,and are involved in subversive activities.....
The case ir closed.....and so are the socialists eyes it seems.
Posted by: Joe Bananas at August 1, 2004 07:08 PM
mystery babylon has many faiths alright.
and the king of false gospels: islam has arrived
to punish.
don't get uptite,
this is my opinion and i could be wrong.
i often wish i was wrong: i don't want my children
to live in a jew-less islamically enlightened country.
Posted by: forrestshalom at August 1, 2004 07:09 PM
Here's a link to a Canadian Islamic site that feels the media should be censored from printing the truth about the Saudis funding Wahabbism in Canada.
http://www.canadianislamiccongress.org/mc/media_communique.php?mcdate=2004-07-31
**************************************************
You'll get a laugh out of their "Islamophobe of the year" section,even though an ex-member from
the C.I.C. that now runs the www.muslimcanadiancongress.org has stated in public that Saudis fund seminars and speakers to push Wahabbism in Canada,the C.I.C. leader,Mohamed Elmasry insists the claims are really Islomophobia. Elmasry was on a Canadian show and mocked a Muslims female for not wearing an Hijab,she was a sinner to be judged by Allah in the day of Judgement.
Canadian Muslims have been on the CBC and proudly boasted that the USA derserved the 9/11 attack which include 25 dead Canadians.A local Mosque in Toronto now raises money for a Al-Qaeda family in Canada that praised Osama and suicide murderers.They want us dead and any excuse to blame Jews to justify slaughtering non-Muslims is now the standard procedure for Jihad.
Posted by: ala-sux at August 1, 2004 07:09 PM
Forrestshalom,
I agree with you concerning the arming of Arab/Muslims States by the US and I am totally against this.
Tell me what other Counrty gives the amount of miltary and economic support that the US does to the State of Israel.
Posted by: Son of Infidel at August 1, 2004 07:12 PM
Typo: what other "country" gives
Posted by: Son of Infidel at August 1, 2004 07:17 PM
to quote the emminent israeli scholar
yohanan ramati:
'there will be a palestinian state if the usa wants
one'.
he said further: israel is in no position to be isolated further in the world. clearly meaning that
tiny israel will do what big 'caesar' insists on.
yes it is a good thing that america currently gives israel financial support. besides being currently a safe haven for jews, it is the only thing that prevents the judgement aspect of the abrahamic covenant (gen 12.3) from kicking in.
america is playing a dangerous and deadly game in
trying to be friends with both sides.
i think therefore that the anti-christ comes out of america to negotiate a 7 year peace agreement with israel and the muslims.
america is the only 'respected' power broker for both sides.
does anyone else see this?
Posted by: forrestshalom at August 1, 2004 07:23 PM
Forestshalom,
It troubles me to see any Jew calling into question the alliance of the United States to Israel.
Go find a copy of "Friends in Deed" by Dan Raviv and Yossi Melman and end your ignorant ranting.
The United States has stood by Israel when all else in the world would have tossed you to the wolves decades ago. Do not start this revisionist dialogue here and especially not now. We have our own problems to deal with in the United States now, and it is due in no small way to our support of Israel amongst other things.
Posted by: Foehammer at August 1, 2004 07:38 PM
i'm gentile not jewish.
but the problem that can't be whisked away is:
the usa is in bed with the devil in saudi arabia.
this has been in developement for over 100 years.
now the devil wants his pound of flesh.
Posted by: forrestshalom at August 1, 2004 07:44 PM
Forrestshalom,
The current Administration, I hope is well aware of the dangers of a Palestinian State.
If the "politically correct" liberal Democrats ever get into the White House the possibilty of a Palesttinian State would be more likely.
The anti-Christ is already in the world and he shall rise from the continent of Europe.
Posted by: Son of Infidel at August 1, 2004 07:44 PM
oh really? what's his name?
Posted by: forrestshalom at August 1, 2004 07:48 PM
Forrestshalom,
Gentile? Oh, well, whatever denomination you are, the same statements I made earlier apply. You once again are talking in distortions:
"the usa is in bed with the devil in saudi arabia.
this has been in developement for over 100 years."
Saudi Arabia was established in 1932.
You do the math.
Regardless, not all Saudi Arabians are our enemies, regardless of the nature of Islam. We need to deal with them firmly and harshly if necessary, but to act as if they harbor some great evil is insanity. The great evil that faces us is the continuation of the lies that push us toward some self-fulfilling prophecy from any side of the fence.
If any prophecy must be fulfilled, let it be one of the dignity of mankind and not fruitless destruction at the hands of zealots on all sides.
Posted by: Foehammer at August 1, 2004 07:53 PM
Forrestshalom,
This will be revealed in the future.
I am perfectly sane and quite serious about my statement.
Posted by: Son of Infidel at August 1, 2004 07:53 PM
But to be more on the subject......I think that soon people are going to start to have a gutfull of all this.
9/11 has only emboldened these people to think that they will soon take over, their arrogance and irrational logic, along with their maifesto(Quran) is just bringing this out in the open.
The only people playing their game are the fools who think that all this is is just wishfull thinking amongst a few "zealouts".
Just out of curiosity though how do you know that the Anti-Christ is allready in Europe? I dont seem to have any scriptures to prove this?
Posted by: Joe Bananas at August 1, 2004 07:57 PM
definition clarification:
jew: anyone physically descended from ya'acov(jacob).
gentile: anyone else.
christian: a jew or gentile who has personally received Yeshua Ha'Machiach as his messiah and savior by calling upon Him to save him: believing in his hear that he died for their sins and rose again.
israel: the jewish people: whether in the promised land or not. can also mean the physical land that God promised the jews.
church: comprised of those defined as christian above.
christendom: probably the best term used to describe
anyone or anyTHING calling itself "christian". but not fulfilling the biblical definition.
questions?
Posted by: forrestshalom at August 1, 2004 07:59 PM
Forrestshalom......Forgive me but I dont understand what this has to do with Muslims wanting to Kill everyone or subduing them and impose Sharia law on the Earth.
As far as I'm concerned Muslims just want all Jews dead (along with everyone it seems, including and occasionaly some of their own)
Ahhhh what a peacefull religion...
Posted by: Joe Bananas at August 1, 2004 08:02 PM
Ok, now this thread is going in the wrong direction.
Posted by: Foehammer at August 1, 2004 08:03 PM
Foehammer,
I would be interested to know what course of action do you think would be appropriate in dealing with the Islamic Countries, such as Saudi Arabia, Iran and Syria?
"We need to deal with them firmly and harshly if necessary, but to act as if they harbor some great evil is insanity. The great evil that faces us is the"
Whether you believe this or not, there is a Satanic fury behind the "evil" of Islam.
Posted by: Son of Infidel at August 1, 2004 08:08 PM
yes i am a gentile according to the biblical given above, but i have a jewish saviour Jesus or
'Yeshua' in hebrew.
americans first made contact with arabia in the late
20th century. they were american missionaries from the reformed church in america. they gained the trust of the arabians: (yes i know saud came later).
this laid the foundation of trust enabling americans to beat the europeans to the oil concession.
i have fascinating info to share on this
strange alliance in the future,and i am trying to find more information on the early formative years.
still this is decidedly not good at all according to the jewish bible: old and new covenants (all written by jews).
Posted by: forrestshalom at August 1, 2004 08:09 PM
islam is satanic to the core:
and the problem goes back to isaac/ishmael.
ultimately satan is in opposition to the Creator God: the God of Israel and His Son Jesus Christ.
the lord is allowing satan to manuever the nations including unbelieving national israel for the grand
finale.
i hope everyone chooses to be on the 'RIGHT' side, and the winning side by the way.
best regards to all: time for my bike ride
shalom
Posted by: forrestshalom at August 1, 2004 08:15 PM
Joe,
I can't go into anymore detail about this now and I am not trying to avoid your question.
Just keep your eye on the events taking place in Europe.
Posted by: Son of Infidel at August 1, 2004 08:15 PM
Son of Infidel:
I've discussed this before, but it comes down to this -- before this conflict is over, I am convinced that Islamic nations worldwide and the Muslims here in the United States will all have to answer a call from the West:
Reform Islam and unconditionally cease all terrorist support, or face world war. Islam must answer or this evil will just cycle back and forth for all time until Islam finally attains its ultimate goal of religious dominance at the cost of modernity, humanity and the future.
This event will most likely manifest only after the United States and/or other predominantly Western/Judao-Christian nations suffer catastrophic terrorist acts that finally shake the rest us out of our Utopian-liberal delirium.
The current atmosphere is just the quiet before the storm, in my opinion. It is just a damn shame that it always takes tragedy to awaken Americans.
Posted by: Foehammer at August 1, 2004 08:21 PM
The current atmosphere is just the quiet before the storm, in my opinion. It is just a damn shame that it always takes tragedy to awaken Americans.
Amen to that...
There is one big whopping earth changing event just lurking around the corner.....waiting to happen.
Posted by: Joe Bananas at August 1, 2004 08:40 PM
I appreciate your reply, although unfortunately you are mistaken.
The Islamic countries and Muslims that you speak of will never reform what they believe to be the "truth" about their vile and "evil" ideology.
This belief they have is in their blood,their soul and their very existence.
The threat of force will not deter them from their present course and as you have seen they are more than willing to die for "Allah".
Well planned,clear and decisive military action aganist the countries that harbor, support and finance the Islamo-fascists is what is needed,vailed threats will accomplish nothing.
This current battle is unlike any that the world has faced before.Ultimately this will become the final conflict.
I am afraid that because of man's inability to learn from the past, he will pay a great price in the future.
Posted by: Son of Infidel at August 1, 2004 08:55 PM
islamwatcher said, “am an Iraqi christian, and i swear, i wish the USA would airlift every single Iraqi christian, and drop them on Dearnborn michigan. I wish more "christians" in the west would speak out about what happens to us.”
islamwatcher, I hope all is well with your friends and family in Iraq.
Posted by: Sheik Canuck (swt) at August 1, 2004 10:06 PM
islamwatcher,
Can you or someone else point me at any web sites in Baghdad (maybe a newspaper or something?) that would give details on the churches attacked and so forth? Arabic is fine.
Pilgrim
Posted by: Pilgrim at August 1, 2004 10:41 PM
Pilgrim,
Try these; most current news is in the comment sections usually days before we get it. Local news organizations listed on side of blogs like Iraqinet may have more info.
http://messopotamian.blogspot.com/
http://iraqthemodel.blogspot.com/
http://hammorabi.blogspot.com/
Posted by: M at August 1, 2004 10:59 PM
The few comments that I have read here leaves me the the distraught impression that we are terrorized to some degree already.
While we debate the issues and agree on nothing, the barbarians are already in the gate and are employed in key position in places like the FBI.
Short of suitcase nukes going off or something, my sense suggests that the good old Norman Rockwell days in American are gone.
Like it or not, we are going to have to learn to live in perpetual fear like the Isrealies. But give credit to the other side for at least being united in a common cause which unfortunately is to destroy us.
Solutions? Short term, rescue the Christians and Jews in the Islamic countries and stop bikering over small stuff. Then, learn a lesson or two from the crusaders of the middle ages -- at least they put a stop to the Islamic nonesense for a couple of centuries.
Long term, it's in God's hands - not allah's.
Posted by: witness at August 1, 2004 11:18 PM
here's a site i found:
http://assyrianchristians.com/
Posted by: forrestshalom at August 1, 2004 11:22 PM
Forrestshalom,
You might be interested in reading M's comments at UK: Ahmadi Muslims call for 'peaceful jihad' August 1, 2004 10:41 PM
Below is one of these comments.
I would be curious to know your thoughts on this.
"But the majority Saudi people are decent human beings"
M claims that 80% of Saudis are Not Wahabbists and are peace loving Muslims.
PS: Have you read "Haterd's Kingdom" by Dore Gold
Posted by: Son of Infidel at August 2, 2004 12:22 AM
witness,
"the barbarians are already in the gate and are employed in key position in places like the FBI".
Could you please elaborate on your above statement.I was not aware that the Islamo-fascists had infiltrated the FBI.
"Like it or not, we are going to have to learn to live in perpetual fear like the Israelis"
The Israelis are a strong,tough and intelligent group of people, that is how they have survived, and they shall continue to do so.
Furthermore, your above comment is dangerous to say the least.Living in fear is exactly what the enemy wants us to do.
Finally, the only thing I fear is the wrath of "God the Father Almighty",not the Islamic-devils.
"Then, learn a lesson or two from the crusaders of the middle ages -- at least they put a stop to the Islamic nonesense for a couple of centuries".
Below are some breif facts about the Crusades.
The first Crusade began in 1096 and they lasted approximately 250 years.During this time there were many atocties, torturing,pillaging and massacring of civilians all in the name of Christ. Many of these victims were Byzantine Christians as well as Jews that were slaugthered.
This rage continued across Europe to Constantinople where in 1204 the city was pillaged and looted of most of its great treasures.
Unfortunately your reference to the Crusades was a poor choice as this was a dark period for the world and a stain on Christianity.
Posted by: Son of Infidel at August 2, 2004 01:29 AM
Here's an example of what's wrong with Islam and Muslim leaders.
Canada has about the same percentage of Muslims as Iraq has Christians,the article below shows how hypersensitive and paranoid they can be.
Schools out and kids will be kids,while Churches
in Iraq are being bombed by their Muslim Brother's
and have murdered at least 10 Christians,a Mosque in Hamilton Ontario Canada was hit with raw eggs.
No matter how many freedoms and rights exist for Muslims in Christian based Countries,any level of childish pranks are treated like a major racist attack. Take note on how the leaders want the prank investigated as a hate crime.
**************************************************
Muslims call on officials to condemn mosque vandalism Wednesday, July 14, 2004 5:35 pm
Hamilton mosque vandalized three times in two weeks.
(Ottawa, Canada - 14/07/2004) - The Canadian Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR-CAN) today called on local officials to condemn the recent vandalism of the Umar mosque in Hamilton, Ontario. CAIR-CAN also called on Hamilton police to treat the incident as a possible hate crime.
Recent reports indicate that vandals have thrown eggs at the mosque three times in the last two weeks. Two of the attacks occurred during prayers.In a statement issued today, CAIR-CAN wrote:
"In Islam, mosques are not simply places of worship,they are also social and community centers. "We need to hear a clear message from our officials that this type of hate activity will not be tolerated in Hamilton or in any other Canadian city. We are calling on Hamilton police to investigate this string of vandalism as possible hate crimes.
**************************************************
Meanwhile, CAIR remains mute on beheadings and blames the 9/11 attack on the JEWS,lets see them blame the Iraq bombings of Churches on the JEWS
or a plot by BUSH to justify the war and win the upcoming election later this year.
I don't see love or compassion and foregiveness being displayed by Islamic cleric's,Muslims learn
the values of Islam from Imam's and their local leaders. Harbouring hate and revengeful anger towards Jews and Christians is a learned behaviour
taught in the Mosques and community centre's.
Posted by: ala-sux at August 2, 2004 01:56 AM
It is difficult to insure liberty, when the friends you support are really sneaky two faced islamic fucks-I guess we cannot blame the FBI or CIA or any intelligence agency who hires lets say an arabic translator-I guess the only option they have is either hire a white guy-or hire the middle eastern guy and follow his every move-of course then we would not be supporting equal oppurtunity or we would be infringing on civil liberties-son of infedil is right--the only solution to this problem is to hunt down every one of the bastards-incorporating democracy is not an outright solution, but it has proven pretty successful in S. America and Asia. Witness, your comments about living in perpetual fear, Im sorry if you feel this way, but to live in fear is no way to live at all. Until I start seeing ragheads in the street with guns or car bombs-im not gonna fear shit-especially not with Mr. Smith and Mr. Wesson in my belt. And it seems that right now the terrorists or whatever they are supposed to be called-it seems they have their hands full trying to keep the democracy from being created. I think that we are starting to learn the tricks of the trade, and i have a good feeling that depending on who is president next term, Iraq actually might see some better days. As far as suitcase nukes being in the U.S.---i guess it is quite possible-but being that there are alot of phyics going into developing a bomb-wether it will detonate by fission or fusion, the various types of uranium needed, wether or not what they have is weapon grade uranium or uranium from an energy plant, without some serious brains it will be hard for them to create a bomb with the affects of Hiroshima. Of course u never know how lucky they can get-but be assured the government has devices for finding this shit-if they can find marijuana growing in someone's house via the usage of ultraviolet light sensors in aircraft-i would think they would have devices to detect nuclear substances.
Posted by: resister at August 2, 2004 02:08 AM
Resister makes some good points. Although we should all be aware of the Jihad being waged against us it would be a big mistake to see everything that's happening as "doom and gloom". A couple of my friends visited the site and, although they found it informative, they were left feeling "overwhelmed by so many negative stories." Let's try and see the positive side of the situation - people ARE waking up to the threat from Islam (just look at how many new members are posting here). Articles against Islam are starting to appear in the printed media that would have been unthinkable just months ago. I really believe the reason why Muslims in the West are suddenly becoming so pushy is because they sense their time is running out. They know we infidels are starting to catch on to their plans for jihad and they're having to speed up their efforts at turning us into dhimmis. But they are thus showing their hand too soon - they are still the minority in the West and despite the gains the liberal-left have given them the backlash is just around the corner. Sure it will be a long, painful struggle to rid ourselves of Islam's cult of death but we are already aware of who are friends and enemies are - we have the advantage.
LOVE LIFE - HATE ISLAM Spread the word....
Posted by: Son Of Albion at August 2, 2004 06:54 AM
I´m sad for the obligation of christian arabs to leave Middle East and going to USA, they´re clever minorities, very culte and it´s a tragedy, is a tragedy than you have to leave your country for your religion, but I would like to make a question, is in USA protected?, is in Canada protected?, in Europe I don´t ask because I´m spanish and I know the answers, I receive news from VOM, and they´re interesting.
Greetings in Christ
Posted by: Franze at August 2, 2004 07:23 AM
oh really? what's his name?
Posted by: forrestshalom at August 1, 2004 07:48 PM
Koffee Anan and the UN
Posted by: Mullah_Abu_Bin_Boobie at August 2, 2004 07:35 AM
M and forrestshalom,
Thank you very much for the web references.
Pilgrim
Posted by: Pilgrim at August 2, 2004 07:47 AM
Franze,
Christianity in the United States and in Canada so far is doing well.
How long this will last I can not say, as the politically correct left wing liberals continue to be enablers of , apologists for, and sympathizers with the Islamo-fascists.
May the grace and peace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.
Posted by: Son of Infidel at August 2, 2004 07:50 AM
A general note, out of context, about the word "Allah." The note is not directed at anybody in particular, and I'm going to make it as dry and factual as I can. :-)
As ever, folks should correct me if I am wrong.
The word "Allah" is just the Arabic word for "God." In the Arabic & English Bibles I obtained from the International Bible Society at the opening of the Gospel according to John, for example, the Arabic text uses "Allah." (That text is "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." NIV)
By simple logic and convention, we would say that the English word for "Allah" is "God." But many people use "Allah" instead of "God" in English to indicate they are talking about God-as-expounded-and-worshiped-by-Muslims as distinguished from God-as-expounded-and-worshiped-by-Jews-and-Christians.
This obviously emphasizes whatever differences exist and hides whatever commonalities exist.
End of note.
Pilgrim
Posted by: Pilgrim at August 2, 2004 08:22 AM
Iraq's Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani issued a statement on the bombings. Link to the news item itself at the end. Can anybody find me the Arabic text online?
----quote
"We denounce and condemn those terrible crimes... We should all be working together as a government and a people in order to put an end to the attacks against Iraqis," it added.
"We stress the need to respect the rights of Christians in Iraq and those of other religious faiths and their right to live in their home, Iraq, peacefully."
Sistani, based in the holy city of Najaf, south of Baghdad, is the most prominent and widely respected of Iraq's Shiite majority.
----end quote
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/afp/20040802/wl_mideast_afp/iraq_attacks_churches_reax_sistani
Pilgrim
Posted by: Pilgrim at August 2, 2004 08:48 AM
Son of Infidel,
Sorry for the confusion, but I did not say 80% of Saudis were peace loving muslims; they very well may be, but I have no way of knowing other than by talking to people in the area and asking questions. That was the tail end of a post from someone in the area who should know. I have talked with Saudis who say it is 50%.
I do not minimize the threat the US and the West is under from radical Islam. I take it very seriously which is why I supported the war-to change the face of the ME so Islamists do not continue to grow in numbers as they have done left unchecked for decades.
It is all very well for any of us to thump our chests and say just nuke them. That is never going to happen, nor should it. It then becomes imperative to deal with things in other ways. Yes, we continue hunting down who we can, work within the UN (right-lol), enlist help from other countries and all that stuff, but that is short term. In the long term, the only viable way to protect ourselves is to promote reforms, particularly in the ME. It is happening now, and OBL and the war in Iraq has essentially forced the issue, but it's going to be a slow process.
It would seem many of you here have a problem with Islam; is it Islam that is the problem or those who are radical about it? Sorry, I am a non-practicing Catholic; so don't go there. I am also Republican, so don't waste your breath.
We need to do everything we can to protect ourselves, but I would hope America could come up with something better than just nuke them all.
Posted by: M at August 2, 2004 09:00 AM
BTW, this is the site that I pasted info about 80% of Saudis being "peace-loving". Please note #3; it's worth the time to read thru posts. Not everyone is a boogeyman.
http://www.mahmood.tv/index.php/blog/659
Re(2): Calm down people...
Posted by: Mahmood Al-Yousif on June 19, 2004 03:52 PM
I understand your frustration. Believe me I do, however let me tell you that we (Arabs and Muslims) are even more frustrated with this situation, much more than you can imagine:
1. We have no say in the way our governments are run.
2. We CANNOT (the Arab and Muslim majority) show our sympathies on our cuffs for fear of persecution and execution.
3. For the most part, we don't care about religion, any religion, we have just become to sickened by the crimes perpetrated in religions' name.
4. We cannot even SAY what I have in 3 above for IMMEDIATELY being labeled as heretics, and that will result in just as immediate death penalty for apostasy by our Islamist friends.
5. We crave liberalism, but our liberals are treated like pariahs by our governments who can't seem to decide where their support should be.
6. Our governments cannot show that they want to progress and support liberals for the perceived threat on its existence. However some have done it in varying successes like Turkey and Tunisia.
7. Secularism is like a death penalty to any Arab/Muslim government (almost) and that's why we see the very first thing in any constitution is that it is based on Islam, if a constitution was present in the first place. What happened at the EU last night with Italy and Poland wanting to add "based on Christianity and European culture" just sickened me. Here we are aspiring to separate religion from politics and we see "the first world" countries wanting to impose texts that would take them back a few hundred years.
8. There is real and present danger for anyone and their families should they be seen as opposition in most if not all of our countries.
9. Free thought is not considered a virtue, but insolence.
10. We don't have any freedoms of the press to speak of, hence, they have to toe the official line, and provision of alternate thoughts and tolerance killed at infancy.
11. No Arab/Muslim government enjoys sympathy from their own people. We have learnt to not trust our governments for generations, hence, there is real absence of a sense of patriotism.
12. 11 would lead to not caring about whatever happens in our environment with thoughts ranging from "if it didn't happen to me or my family, I don't care" to "they deserve it, let the government clean up the mess, it's no skin off my nose."
These are some of the feelings I hear when interacting and traveling through the Gulf countries and speaking to other Arabs and Muslims.
I hope you understand the immense frustration we feel. It's not lethargy or not caring for our fellow human being. We do. We feel for everyone, but it is very difficult for an Arab to show emotion because of this ever present fear of state-sponsored-intimidation.
Should we just sit back and give up though? No chance. This situation IS changing to the better. Slowly mind you but is changing.
The irony is however is that Osama bin-Laden has served as a catalyst for this change! We despise what this animal has done for our way of life and reputation, but through his heinous acts it has FORCED change!
So we've back to the beginning of your assumption: Should change be imposed?
I think whether we like it or not it IS being and will continue to be imposed by the "west" and by the likes of bin-Laden. It's how we deal with that change and the opportunities presented by these factors is the question, and I don't have the answer for that one yet.
I believe that maybe there should be another way to impose this change, and that is by exploring partnerships and the world powers providing catalysts for change. Maybe a carrot and a stick scenario is one way: fix up your country or we won't trade with you...
But if we both - as peoples - just get frustrated and start throwing accusations and bombs at each other, we won't be fixing up any mess but adding to it.
Let's partner for peace. We KNOW that we have problems, you KNOW that you have problems, so how about calming down and looking at problems through the thoughts of partnership and try to fix them? Wouldn't that be a catalyst for change for the better?
or am I again just being naive?
Posted by: M at August 2, 2004 09:05 AM
M
for your consideration, here is the simple truth as expressed by Ibn Warraq:
There are moderate Muslims. Islam itself is not and can not be moderate.
Right, or it would take to remove to many verses from the Quran, don't you think so?
Posted by: Nikoz at August 2, 2004 10:20 AM
Furthermore,
how do we tell the wheat from the chaff, that is, distingush Ahl al-Jihad from from Ahl as-Salam?
And let me just once more remind you of Islamic taqiyya - concealment for the good of the Din (faith). Hypocrisy unlimited, in other words.
The problem is that NO Muslims can be trusted in this day and age. The stakes are too high.
Posted by: Nikoz at August 2, 2004 10:28 AM
moslems are the first victims of their ideology.
we can't know what percentage of them are 'radical' or 'moderate', so we need to keep our focus on the ideology.
since the ideology is impossible to change due to its historic and "divine" sanction, what moderate moslems say is irrelevant, since their ideology teaches them to lie to non/moslems.
to achieve total freedom from 'allah's' clutch,
i recommend that moslems receive Jesus Christ as their Saviour: this will cure them of their hatred.
yes i have read 'hatred's kingdom'.
its a helpful book, but like many secular observations: it doesn't go far enough for the solution.
islam will not be reformed:
but moslems can leave it if they choose, even if they live in a closed islamic state like arabia.
they can read a bible online and hear the Gospel message thru the power of the internet.
Posted by: forrestshalom at August 2, 2004 10:41 AM
M, do you really think you can divorce "religion" (i.e. an understanding and affirmation of moral truth) from politics? It's been tried -- in the USSR. In Cambodia. In Vietnam. In China. I'm afraid that law must concern itself with issues of right and wrong and therefore must align itself with principles derived from some source in order to stand. Would you want to live in a state where the only thing that prevented people from doing things was the fear of being caught? Here in the United States, we've had a president who thought that way and it messed us up for eight long years. No more.
As for what faith should we derive our precepts from, we know that atheism and Islam both don't work. Let's look at history to see what does work.
Posted by: NoMoreJihad at August 2, 2004 10:44 AM
Exactly. This continuation of appeasement of Islam is a tired joke and is going to cost too many innocent lives in the United States and the West.
Isn't it clear now, after the attacks on the churches in Iraq, that the Islamists will not stop until this becomes a cut and dried religious war for all involved?
Islam is the enemy. Anyone that that wishes to not be on the wrong side in the coming events can make a choice -- get involved in reforms of Islam to make it a true religion of peace that can exist in the modern world, or failing that, leave Islam or convert to one of the world's truly peaceful major religions like Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism or Buddhism.
The truth hurts.
Posted by: Foehammer at August 2, 2004 10:49 AM
Btw, leaving Islam is not a choice for most of the Muslim world because apostates are dealt with brutally more often than not.
Men are typically executed if apostasy is proven, and the women are beaten senseless until they repent and return to Islam or die from their wounds.
I also do not like anyone talking in terms that secularism does not go far enough. Secularism is what makes Christianity tolerable in our modern culture, lest anyone forgets, it was not so long ago that witches were burned at the stake and non-believers were put on torture wheels in Spain.
Don't start damning secularist ideas as being less wise than Christian ones, or you may very well start sounding like the Taliban yourselves.
Think about that.
God gave us brains to use them, not to live with blinders on.
Posted by: Foehammer at August 2, 2004 10:54 AM
M,
You have stated that you are a Republican, although your comments reflect the thinking of a "liberal" Democrat.Possibly you are a closet case liberal.
Basic "facts" about Islam
Islam is a religion of legalistic demands and merciless vengeance.It's "allged" prophet,Mohammed,(an avowed pedophile and child molester),when leading the Muslim armies in their conquests gave the non-believers three choices: 1) profess the faith of Islam,2) pay tribute or 3) die by the sword.
Islam is an ideology of intolorance,hate,subjugation and vindictive violence.
The Qu'an has no moral center,it preaches militant hate and death and destruction to the Infidel.
Islam, over the past 14 centuries has had a long and bloody history and it is not about to reform it's self now.In fact, with the spread of Wahabbism, Islam has only become more violent.
Your sanctimonious and appeasing posture, quite frankly makes me sick.
It is this very thinking that allowed Nazism and Fascism to spread.
The very center of Islam's core is evil.
History has taught us that evil can not be appeased, nor compromised with and never negotiated with.
The only way to deal with evil, is to destroy it!
Posted by: Son of Infidel at August 2, 2004 11:33 AM
Son of Infidel,
I am a 53 year old mother of 3 married to an exMarine; please do no insult me by calling me a closet liberal. But if I were one, that is none of your business.
I fully understand the message regarding infidels in the Qu'an, so spare me your copy and paste skills. Are their muslims that practice Islam to the letter, certainly, and they are the enemy. I submit there are many other muslims that do not and are no different than a Catholic who believes in God but has an abortion. Your failure to accept that fact and call for their destruction along with everyone else is no different than OBL and company. No doubt God would see you burning in hell a long time for that one; you and OBL will have ALOT to talk about. Don't ever take the moral high ground with me, cause you are simply WRONG.
Posted by: M at August 2, 2004 12:10 PM
Resister writes:
"Witness, your comments about living in perpetual fear, Im sorry if you feel this way, but to live in fear is no way to live at all. Until I start seeing ragheads in the street with guns or car bombs-im not gonna fear shit-especially not with Mr. Smith and Mr. Wesson in my belt. "
Witness responds:
Resister, go ahead and light up a smoke while I pour you another drink. Obviously, you are a West Point graduate.
No doubt you have the bad-guys on the run!
Given your strategic and tactical insights, I'm sure we'll have the troops "home by Christmas." With generals like you on our side, we in the west can sleep better tonight -- nuke suticases or not.
Pligram writes:
"The word "Allah" is just the Arabic word for "God." In the Arabic & English Bibles I obtained from the International Bible Society at the opening of the Gospel according to John, for example, the Arabic text uses "Allah."
Witness response
Pilgram, yours is the more liberal interpretation that I have been privy to over the years. A more conservative definition holds that the title "God" is attributed to a specific deity with unique attributes and who claims exclusive title to the term "God."
As such, the dieties "Allah" and "Yahweh" are separate and distinct persona who lay compeating claim to the tile "God."
Son of Infidel wrties:
Below are some breif facts about the Crusades.
The first Crusade began in 1096 and they lasted approximately 250 years.During this time there were many atocties, torturing,pillaging and massacring of civilians all in the name of Christ. Many of these victims were Byzantine Christians as well as Jews that were slaugthered.
This rage continued across Europe to Constantinople where in 1204 the city was pillaged and looted of most of its great treasures.
Unfortunately your reference to the Crusades was a poor choice as this was a dark period for the world and a stain on Christianity."
Witness responds:
The atrocities that you attribute to Christianity are sidebars in every conflagration. There are always innocents that forefit life and limb in the ugly business we call "war."
My allusion was to the over-arching response by the Christian West to the common threat posed by Islamists who started the invasions in the first place. The unity of purpose was a consideration for both sides during the period -- to wit: "destroy them." Granted there must have been nuasances as there always will be in these matters, but the commonality of purpose is an intriging feature of the crusade period.
In this context, my observation is that today the commonality of purpose on the part of the west is lacking. This to our detriment.
But with Resister leading the charge, I'm sure we're in good hands -- no?
To M:
I feel your pain to coin a phrase. You are not in a position that I envy and suggest that you need to make some very difficult choices. No doubt that you realize that already.
So than, what to do? God knows.
Posted by: witness at August 2, 2004 12:12 PM
M,
To compare the Islamo-terrorist-scum to people that recognize the real threat that they pose and understand what is necassry to deal with this threat, is idiotic and ignorant.
Futhermore, I am not impressed that you are married to an ex marine and to say that I will burn in hell is an over emotional reaction on your part.
If we follow your advice we will either all be dead or bowing to Mecca.
PS: I do not "copy and paste" I use my brain, a part of your body in need of great improvement.
PSS:I still say that you are a closet case "liberal"
Posted by: Son of Infidel at August 2, 2004 12:37 PM
From the Voice of America:
Iraqi Church Bombings Seen as Attempt to Split Religious Groups
Several of Iraq's top religious leaders have denounced Sunday's deadly bombings of five Christian churches in Baghdad and the northern city of Mosul. Iraqi government officials say those who attacked the churches were trying to drive a wedge between Christians and Muslims...
follow the link for more...
http://www.voanews.com/article.cfm?objectID=1DBE848E-D990-4A28-872081B3F11FF9E5
Posted by: al-Canine at August 2, 2004 12:41 PM
Here, from a former advisor to the US Department of State, is the truth about the church bombings.
Allahu akbar
Posted by: Reza at August 2, 2004 12:44 PM
witness,
Your interpertation of the Crusades is in error, and purely self serving.
Do some "research" and you will know the "truth".
"Like it or not, we are going to have to learn to live in perpetual fear like the Israelis"
Based on your above statement, I suggest that you get some tranquilizers to take while you are cowaring in the corner.
Posted by: Son of Infidel at August 2, 2004 12:57 PM
With regard to crusading
I'm writing my degree on the First Crusade, specifically the relationship of the Franks and Eastern Christians.
Witness is totally right about the common purpose notion. Son of Infidel gets it all wrong. I'll presume to explain.
The crusading ideal and the real backbone of the First Crusade was a war of liberation.
Those who took the cross after pope Urban II's mighty sermon at Clermont went off to set free the Holy City from the Muslim yoke. Along with that, the pope urged the Franks to help break the chains of fellow Christians in the East, whose lands had been laid waste by the infidels.
And verily, this spirit of unity and belief in God's support was to result in the Crusade's overwhelming success.
It is also noteworthy that the vast majority of the indigenous Christians proved supportive and helpful, take for example the Armenians of Edessa or the Maronites of Lebanon.
The eventual fall of the crusader states stemmed from the inability to cooperate with Byzantium and the mutual hostility initially triggered by Bohemond of Otranto, that's true.
For more information see the faximile of M. W. Baldwin's excellent account.
http://libtext.library.wisc.edu/HistCrusades/
Posted by: Nikoz at August 2, 2004 12:57 PM
Nikoz,
Please enlighten me, were there any Jews or Christians killed by the Crusaders, because if you had read my previous comments that is the point I was making.
"Needless to say, Peter's Quest was doomed. They behaved poorly along the route, thieving food and ransacking homes for supplies. The worst was the persecution of the Jews before even leaving Europe".
"The Jewish peoples had lived in relative quiet amongst the Christians up to this point. Though not accepted in the Communities, they were tolerated and business was conducted in a relatively civilized manor".
"The Jewish peoples had their own communities and though they were looked down upon, they were not opposed till now. Peter's army lacked funds. It was suggested that if the Crusaders could kill the enemies of God abroad, then what's to stop them at home. Let it be noted that the Church did not condone this. Bishops locally preached against this, and some were attacked for their preaching. The Bishop of Spier saved many lives, but at Warms the Bishop was driven from his home and the Jews he sheltered were slaughtered. Same thing at the town of Mainz. The Bishops could not stop Peter's army. They continued their rage across Europe to Constantinople".
"Arriving there, Alexis didn't know what to make of them. Not wanting them to stay to cause further trouble in his city, he made arrangements to have them shipped over the Bosphorus river to Anatolia. Five days after they arrived, in July 1096, they were moved to Turkey. Most never saw the Grand city of Constantinople much to Alexis' relief".
"Once in Anatolia, Peter's followers felt it was time to start Crusading in earnest, torturing, pillaging and massacring indiscriminately. However, as it turned out, most of their victims were Byzantine Christians who lived in and around Nicaea".
Posted by: Son of Infidel at August 2, 2004 01:19 PM
Witness,
Thanks for the concern, but I have been visiting JW for a very long time and understand the intolerance of some of the thought police here. My mother always taught me to do the right thing even if it hurts, and I am way too old to be told what I should believe.
While I might dream of mining the borders (I really mean that), stopping all immigration, deport all foreigners, and stop trading with the world and put Americans back to work being selfsufficient, that is never going to happen. Neither is nuking Mecca or destroying Islam. What we are going to kill billions of muslims now (good with the bad)because they practice some form of Islam? Don't think so. So others can rant on and make themselves feel pretty important by accomplish nothing. I would no sooner buy into that crap than I would with what OBL is selling. Wrong is wrong, pure and simple. We all have choices, and we can be part of the problem or part of the solution.
Posted by: M at August 2, 2004 01:39 PM
Nikoz,
Here is more "factual" information about the Crusades.
Good luck with your writing.
"The Seljuk Turks gained control of Jerusalem in 1071. Seljuk rule of Palestine lasted less than 30 years. In 1098, the Fatimids, based in Egypt, took advantage of the Seljuk struggles with the Christian crusaders from Europe. They allied themselves with the Crusaders and capt
Posted by: witness [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 3:36 PM
witness,
you repost another long pointless reposting like that that adds nothing to the coversation, and I'll do what I can to have you banned.
There is NO EXCUSE for abusing the board like that.
Posted by: Bob Owens [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 3:44 PM
Remember this much, all you apologists: The Crusades were a REACTION to centuries of Muslim aggression.
That's the part Islam never talks about.
And it wasn't too many centuries after the last Crusade that the Muslims went right back to their bombarding of Constantinople and invading Italy, Spain and the Balkans.
Muslims are the most masterful liars in history, but written record is written record and even the most ornate mosque can not hide every stone of a temple or church beneath it.
Posted by: Foehammer [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 3:54 PM
witness,
Have you nothing better to do with your time.
Your behavior is childish and disruptive.
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 4:02 PM
Perhaps you should check with the board folks,
seems we have two uid's using the name "witness"
I keep my posts to a minimum, for example:
"Here is more "factual" information about the Crusades.
Good luck with your writing.
"The Seljuk Turks gained control of Jerusalem in 1071. Seljuk rule of Palestine lasted less than 30 years. In 1098, the Fatimids, based in Egypt, took advantage of the Seljuk struggles with the Christian crusaders from Europe. They allied themselves with the Crusaders and capt
Posted by: witness at August 2, 2004 03:36 PM "
IS NOT MINE.
Posted by: witness [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 4:05 PM
Foehammer,
I am in agreement with you,however that does not excuse the atocities purportrated by the Crusaders aganist the Jews and other innocent non-muslims.
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 4:08 PM
Son of Infidel:
About the cowerdice stuff...I DID read you correctly the FIRST time. Your lucky the bar invitation was ever open to the likes of you.
You're a charming fellow and I appreciate your compliments and all -- but your rantings on this board make the rest of us look pretty silly.
Bob O.
Unless you are the owner of this board...well sir, you best stand-by sir... you best stand-by.
Posted by: witness [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 4:14 PM
There are always attrocities in war. The real evil manifests itself during times of relative PEACE.
Look around us -- who is intentionally raping and killing civilians in the world year in and year out?
There is no moral equivalency between ancient Crusades and the modern barbarism of Islamic Jihadists.
This gets back to the way I was raised -- don't start the fight, finish it.
It's really that simple.
Posted by: Foehammer [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 4:17 PM
witness,
I do not post rantings.
I post clear, succint, factual statements.
Finally, it is you who are doing the ranting, your posts are rife with them,evidently because, to quote you:
"Like it or not, we are going to have to learn to live in perpetual fear like the Israelis"
Stop living in perpetual fear and you will be a more relaxed person and you will not feel the need to take out your anxieties by repeatedly and deliberatelly placing these extremely long posts.
Sincerly,
Son of Infidel
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 4:38 PM
Wow, it's the longest thread I've seen at JW.
Son of Infidel,
Foehammer's just indicated what I was getting at. War has an ugly face. But nothing conceivably uglier than Islamic Jihad.
I hope you're with me on that.
Posted by: Nikoz [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 4:39 PM
witness, I assume by your comment that since you cannot apparently win an argument based upon the quality of your argument, you intend to do so based upon volume?
How very "Democratic Underground" of you.
Posted by: Bob Owens [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 4:46 PM
Nikoz,
I'm with you!
About the longest thread, it seems that witness an anxiety attack.
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 5:00 PM
Typo: witness "had" an anxiety attack.
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 5:02 PM
What makes you think he's a Democrat supporter?
Posted by: Nikoz [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 5:27 PM
Here's something really sad,while Muslim leaders are quick to scream Islamophobia and racism when Mosques are vandalized by pranksters on summer break from school,the Canadian media was so afraid of offending Muslims the reports
from Iraq stated the bombs went off near several buildings by unknown assailants.
This occured around evening services by worshippers in some of the buildings.
What a load of crap, Christians were Murdered by Muslims that used prater services to assure the Churches were busy. Just try bombing a Mosques
at anytime of the day,the Jihadist would be out in full force around the world ready to destroy
everything and everybody.
I've really tried to be fair to Islam and read the Quran and listen to Imam's and Muslims,but the hate and violence is to overt to be written off as a fringe group. The Quran promotes murder and Muhammed was a pedophile and misogenist,what's worse is that Muslims leaders try to promote Islam as slaughtering less people than other faiths.
Wow,now that's a real selling feature.
Posted by: ala-sux [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 3, 2004 12:12 AM
I was on the BBC website and below is the typical response from Muslims in the denial stage and paranoia mode. The "Have your say" question was on the Church bombings and a few posts were
much like this one.
Iraq before the war no longer had weapons of mass destruction nor what is branded as "international terrorism". Now that the war is over, Iraq still has no weapons of mass destruction but has, on the other hand, loads of mass explosions. Mr Bush and Mr Blair's "crusade" has eliminated a visible big monster and replaced him with numerous smaller invisible ones. The Iraqi Christians, never a target before, shall now live the fear that is felt by their 25 million Iraqi co-citizens. Thank you Mr Bush and Mr Blair for making the Middle East a safer place, for extremists to flourish, that is.
Nabil A Sasso, Dakar, Senegal
What compassion from these peaceful tolerant bunch,screw Sudan,let Allah sort out the infidels
and lets start have the Quran ruled hate-literature and see the Muslims prove it to be wrong.
The first two blasts happened near churches in the busy Karada shopping area of Baghdad, sending a plume of smoke across the neighbourhood.
At least two people are reported to have been killed in what appears to be a new tactic by insurgents.
A third blast was reported a short time later in Mosul, where a police station had been bombed earlier in the day.
Witnesses said a car bomb detonated outside an Armenian church as an evening service was getting under way.
Shattered glass
It blew out stained glass windows, and scattered pieces of hot metal across the street. The wreckage of at least three burned out cars was left in its wake.
"I saw injured women and children and men, the church's glass shattered everywhere. There's glass all over the floor," Juliette Agob, who was inside the church at the time, was quoted by the Associated Press as saying.
Ten minutes later, as the emergency services raced to the scene, a second blast went off outside a Syrian Catholic church some 400 metres from the first church.
An ambulance driver said two people had been killed.
At around the same time, a suspected car bomb went off outside a church in Mosul.
Posted by Robert at August 1, 2004 12:56 PM
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Comments
(Note: Comments on articles are unmoderated, and do not necessarily reflect the views of Jihad Watch or Robert Spencer. Comments that are off-topic, offensive, slanderous, or otherwise annoying may be summarily deleted. However, the fact that particular comments remain on the site IN NO WAY constitutes an endorsement by Robert Spencer of the views expressed therein.)
I am an Iraqi christian, and i swear, i wish the USA would airlift every single Iraqi christian, and drop them on Dearnborn michigan. I wish more "christians" in the west would speak out about what happens to us.
Ps. Christians are harmless, thats why sadam used use to cook his food.
Posted by: islamwatcher [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 1:14 PM
Does anyone know the name or other specific information about any of the three churches mentioned in the news item?
Pilgrim
Posted by: Pilgrim [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 1:14 PM
Hey Catholics:
Reza's calling you "muslims" over on the Dhimmi Watch July 31 "Tariq Ramadan . . . " thread.
Posted by: CGW [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 1:21 PM
OT:
Great article by a CANADIAN, a must-read.
GOD BLESS AMERICA
Posted by: CGW [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 1:31 PM
Hey folks:
MEMRI reports as follows regarding the Saudi terror suspect who turned himself in under the Amnesty:
http://www.memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD75404
A few weeks after Al-Omari was turned in, the Saudi newspapers reported that the Saudi authorities had paid off Al-Omari's debts. According to Al-Watan, Othman Al-Omari's mother expressed her "gratitude and appreciation of Prince Muhammad Bin Naif for his noble initiative to pay off the debts of her son, who recently turned himself in to the Saudi authorities." The mother recounted that "Prince Muhammad Bin Naif contributed the entire sum, totaling 170,000 SR [$45,300], as well as a grant of 30,000 SR [$8,000] to Al-Omari's family. In addition, a monthly stipend of 3,000 SR [$800] will be paid to Othman Al-Omari's children, as well as a salary of 2,000 SR [$530] to Othman Al-Omari himself." [3]
And more recently, they have posted that the Saudi Gazette has a message of thanks from Al-Omari's mother in it. The Saudi Gazette is and English language propaganda arm of the Saudis. So, of course, your humble researcher attempted to find out if what MEMRI had posted was true. And, it must be true, because the Gazette has blocked access to every issue of the Gazette for the whole month of July.
Posted by: Mentat [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 1:36 PM
In 1933, five months after the British left, and having promised not to harm minorities, Muslims in Iraq attacked and murdered tens of thousands of helpless Assyrian Christians. Some say the figure was "only" 70,000. William Saroyan, of Armenian ancestry, wrote about the massacres; he called his book "70,000 Assyrians." Perhaps it is time to reprint it, along with all the eyewitness testimonies of Armenian survivors of the attacks, not based on ethnicity but rather on hatred of the "giavour" or Infidel (or "Christiand dog") which in 1894-95 and to much more murderous effect, in 1915 and the years following, by Turks, and Kurds, and even by the Arabs of the Syrian Desert who would pick off Armenian women and girls as they made their way to the relative safety of Christian communities in such places as Haleb (Aleppo) and Beirut.
The attacks on Christian churches, and on Chistians in Iraq, is simply one more chapter in the long history, recorded by Bat Ye'or in "The Decline of Eastern Christianity Under Islam," a book that should be read by policymakers, and by all those who take an interest in what Islam holds in store for Infidels.
And, of course,one need only look at the slow asphyxiation of the Copts in Egypt, of the once-thriving Christian civilization of North Africa (home of both Tertullian and St. Augustine), of formerly-Christian Byzantium with its vast riches and advanced civilization, of Christians today anywhere that Muslims predominate -- in Pakisan and the Sudan and Indonesia -- or even where they form a minority sufficiently strong to feel it can go on the attack (as in the Philippines, and in Bosnia and Kosovo).
How much evidence, from the texts of Islam, and from the behavior of Muslims through time and space, does one need? What further evidence does one require?
Posted by: Hugh [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 2:06 PM
islamwatcher,
You said, "I wish more 'christians' in the west would speak out about what happens to us."
Where would I obtain information about what is happening to you? I can read Arabic poorly, French better, and English best. I can speak Arabic somewhat better than I read it.
To whom should I speak out?
If you wish to contact me directly, use mt1016b-tango@yahoo.com
Pilgrim
Posted by: Pilgrim [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 2:10 PM
This was mentioned in passing on a local chicago news talk show, just before the cut to something more important -- sports!
It is sad because the priorities of the American media are incomprehensible to me.
Now if this were a mosque, well now, that would be a hate crime and the media would go nuts!
Posted by: witness [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 2:26 PM
Wait a minute, according to that NYT beacon of secular platitudes, Nicholas Kristof, believing Christians are equally, a danger to civilization as we in the West know it, as believing Muslims are.
So what if the Koran sounds more like Mein Kempf than the Bible, so what if the word "Islam" literally translates into "submission", peace thru conquest. So what if the more violent passages of the Koran abrogate the earlier tolerant passages. So what if even moderate Muslims living the US talk on their blogs about the coming Islamic caliphate, and a Muslim in the white house.
We need to turn the discussion to True & False. Was the emperor of Japan, God? NO. Because the Japanese sincerely believed he was, did that make it so? NO. Does Allah, who needs the constant killing off of unbelievers, sound like he loves the little children? I don't think so. Instead he encourages his Islamic followers to raise their own children to become living bombs. Too, its their only assurance of Salvation with a lust-filled heaven in return. Does Allah sound anything like God to you?
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. -1 John 4:1
Posted by: daughter of patriots [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 2:31 PM
To Islamwatcher:
I am catholic too, spanish, but catholic, am very sad for what was happening, can you explain to us, if the situation for christians is better than before, and I would like to say that christians iraquis dont´have to leave Iraq, I dont´want a islamic republic, the christians in Iraq and like other countries are very culte and without them the arabic countries and non-arabic muslims countries would be in the Stone Age.
Greetings and my prayings for this christian and catholic people murdered in the name of Islam.
Posted by: Franze [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 2:52 PM
islamwatcher and pilgrim,
The Voice of the Martyrs is a non-profit, interdenominational organization with
a vision for aiding Christians around the world who are being persecuted for their beliefs.
VOM was founded by the Reverand Richard Wurmbrand, who spent 14 years in Romanian prisons.He wrote a book called Tortured for Christ as well as others.
Below is the link to their website.I hope this will be of help.
http://www.persecution.com/
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 3:05 PM
Pilgrim, thankyou for the solidarity, God bless all of you. Among iraqis the news travels fast, and through our media locals.
For western people, you need to read between the lines, as sad as it seems, they will cover it breifly. The best thing is to write to your congress and politicians, and ask them to forward the immigration process of the middle east christians. Remeber, muslims would arent refugues when they leave their islamic utopias.
Thankyou everyone, please keep us in prayer.
Posted by: islamwatcher [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 3:07 PM
Islamwatcher,
I am an American Christian and have already been praying for Iraqi Christians and am part of the Voice of the Martyr supporters. My first thought when I heard about the church blasts was that we should send planes to pick up all the Iraqi Christians and resettle them in the United States. If our FBI needs translators, why not the Iraqi Christians. Please keep posting here so we know how things are going. I will be contacting my govt officials about the plight of Iraqi Christians tomorrow. Be strong and courageous. Remember what Peter wrote about:
12Dear friends, do not be surprised at the painful trial you are suffering, as though something strange were happening to you. 13But rejoice that you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when His glory is revealed.
Jesus has already overcome the world and is with you as you go through the fire. I would prefer that all Christians in Muslim countries would come here to the U.S. if that were possible...because the judgement of the Islamic nations is at hand; Muslims are not fighting us, they are fighting Jesus since Christ lives in us. Their time is short. Remember Psalm 2 and Psalm 37. Don't be discouraged, we will see the day when every Muslim knee will bend to Jesus and every Muslim will confess that He is Lord not their false deity...we will even see the false prophet of Islam and OBL bowing to Jesus before Jesus removes them from us forever.
Remembering you in prayer and asking for your protection and deliverance!
Posted by: Abby [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 3:36 PM
this would be a great opportunity for 'brother' bush
our 'christian' president to demonstrate his faith:
evacuate all professing christians out of iraq and bring them to the usa.
(but i won't hold my breath on it)
by the way i came across an excellent article by
hugh fitzgerald entitled
'islam for the perplexed'
http://mailman.io.com/pipermail/freemanlist/2004-July/002457.html
Posted by: forrestshalom [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 4:04 PM
The sad thing is that tomorrow, the entire arab media will be describing these bombings as the work of Zionists/Mossad/Jews/Coalition Forces. A new conspiracy will be afoot.
I agree with everyone: Let's get the Christians out now!
Posted by: 3812Michelle [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 4:16 PM
Later reports say that six churches, not three, were attacked.
Pilgrim
Posted by: Pilgrim [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 4:18 PM
Forrestshalom,
If the President of the United States was a Jew, what actions would he take to help other Jews out side of the US.
I am geting a bit tired of your biased anti-Christian/Bush Rhetoric.
Futhermore, the Bush Administration has been very supportive of "Israel", more so than previous Administrations, MR. "Shalom"
You seem to have some type of issue with Christianty.
"lets face the TRUTH".
"the west: led by 'christian' america is in an alliance with the muslims".
"the war against 'terrorism' is only a ploy".
Posted by: forrestshalom at July 30, 2004 11:46 AM
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 5:22 PM
I am in canada, and i am going to be writing to my politicians to forward some of these people in. Let me tell you this, muslims, like the leeches they are, do pose as christians when they want to get to western countries, and many western immigration officials do ask them to recite certain prayers (this has happened to much of my family)
I press my american brothers and sisters to do the same, or any westerners for that matter.
I can remember seeing pics and reading about how Israel airlifted the remaining jews in iraq to safety, i wish the U.S. could do this.
God bless the U.S.A.
Posted by: islamwatcher [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 5:23 PM
islamwatcher,
Here is the US "all" politicians play the game of "politics" and as such it is unlikely and "unfortunate" that any action will be taken to airlift Christians out of Iraq or any other place in the world.
At this time George Bush is the best option we have.Until there is a better one, I shall support him.
The Voice of the Martyrs is a good organization.I recommend that you contact them.
May the grace and peace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you evermore.
Son of Infidel
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 6:18 PM
the war against islam will not be won by killing
a few or alot of muslims here and there.
it will be won once the ideology/religion is identified and dispatched. something that bush can't
see.
i don't think that this war will ulimately be won by humans, as it is diaobolical(satanic:hence spiritual
in nature).
a jewish american president? good idea. hopefully he would help his fellow jews in trouble like sharon
and israel does.
church going clinton and now bush has not lifted a finger to help any professing christian in muslim lands.
a HUGE difference! :)
Posted by: forrestshalom [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 6:25 PM
Just look at the climate of fear these barbarians have thrust our way of life into: "Hercules" police on library steps in NYC armed like soldiers.
Should we accept this or should we fight?
It is time to hold Islam to account for perpetuating this climate of hate.
Are you reading this, Saudi Arabia?
Are you reading this, mullahs in Iran?
Are you reading this, Syrian jihadists?
Are you reading this, Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt?
Welcome to the New Crusade.
America once had a climate where no Communist was welcome. Let us now allow no Muslim here that condones "Jihad." Reform or be expelled. That's the only wisdom I can see for dealing with Islam in the United States.
Al Qaeda -- attack us if you will, but be forwarned now -- the climate in the United States is like the foundering of your twisted cult on the razors edge and whichever way you push us it will cut badly for you.
Posted by: Foehammer [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 6:36 PM
I remember being very excited when I discovered VOM. Their materials are very professional and it seemed they had some good projects and actions going.
Over the year or so that I received their materials I formed an impression that I am posting here in order that it may be corrected if it is wrong. My impression was that VOM concentrated almost exclusively on Protestant Christians, especially Evangelicals. The item I remember -- but this is only my memory, and may well be selective or fallible! -- was an item on some persecutions on Cyprus, and Orthodox Christians weren't mentioned at all (either as having been persecuted or even as part of the scenery). FYI, I am Orthodox Christian.
Nonetheless, VOM is the first place I would try to get to notice what is happening to Christians in Iraq. And for all I know they've already done articles on it. :-)
Pilgrim
Posted by: Pilgrim [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 6:37 PM
Here is a possible resource but I know nothing about them so please don't flame me, just enlighten me.
Middle East Council of Churches
http://www.mecchurches.org/
Pilgrim
Posted by: Pilgrim [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 6:42 PM
an iraq (babylon) empty of jews?
i think this is highly significant prophetically.
during the great tribulation the jews are warned to flee mystery babylon.
obviously jews aren't returning to literal babylon/iraq soon.
my leading (in fact only) candidate for the accursed
"mystery babylon" is america.
america is the largest outpost of diaspora jews in the world: about 6 million.
God warns them to 'come out of her (mystery babylon)
before the final blows of judgement fall.
personally i think it is an islamic nuclear attack...
Posted by: forrestshalom [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 6:44 PM
And here is the only list of Baghdad Christian churches I've been able to find. I don't know how old it is. It may help identify the churches attacked today.
http://www.chaldeansonline.net/church/christian.html
Pilgrim
Posted by: Pilgrim [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 6:45 PM
as for the usa or bush being 'friends' with israel:
I DOUBT IT! this would be a funny statement if it were not so tragic and full of dire consequences.
how can the usa be the FRIENDS of both saudi arabia and israel?
the west led by the usa has armed the muslim world
and they in turn are using them on us.
another analogy from the book of daniel chapter 2:
iron/clay
iron:western arms and technology
clay:muslim oil
hint: "a'rav"
Posted by: forrestshalom [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 6:58 PM
Iraqi Christians of whatever denomination,come and join your brothers and sisters in the West.
We will welcome you with open arms. Apply as a persecuted minority for residence in New Zealand.
Posted by: Morgane [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 7:00 PM
Forrestshalom,
Israel is a "Jewish State" and was created for the preservation and continuance of the Jewish people.
Ezekiel 11:17
17 Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.
The United States is a nation of many faiths.
If President Bush were to bring persecuted Christians from other parts of the world to this country, or for that matter if any other President were to do this, they would be obligated to do the same for people of other faiths.
As such your previous comments are in error.
However I do agree with you concerning the diabolical "evil" of Islam.
The prophesy of the Book of Revelation will be fulfilled.
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 7:01 PM
clarification:
as for the usa or bush being 'friends' with israel:
I DOUBT IT! this would be a funny statement if it were not so tragic and full of dire consequences.
-------------
i meant to say 'tragically false' in the above statement.
Posted by: forrestshalom [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 7:02 PM
There is an inherentl differerence between Middle eastern Muslims and Middle Eastern Christians who liv ein the West.
And everywhere the story is the same.....Its the Muslims who cause the most trouble, show no respect,and are involved in subversive activities.....
The case ir closed.....and so are the socialists eyes it seems.
Posted by: Joe Bananas [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 7:08 PM
mystery babylon has many faiths alright.
and the king of false gospels: islam has arrived
to punish.
don't get uptite,
this is my opinion and i could be wrong.
i often wish i was wrong: i don't want my children
to live in a jew-less islamically enlightened country.
Posted by: forrestshalom [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 7:09 PM
Here's a link to a Canadian Islamic site that feels the media should be censored from printing the truth about the Saudis funding Wahabbism in Canada.
http://www.canadianislamiccongress.org/mc/media_communique.php?mcdate=2004-07-31
**************************************************
You'll get a laugh out of their "Islamophobe of the year" section,even though an ex-member from
the C.I.C. that now runs the www.muslimcanadiancongress.org has stated in public that Saudis fund seminars and speakers to push Wahabbism in Canada,the C.I.C. leader,Mohamed Elmasry insists the claims are really Islomophobia. Elmasry was on a Canadian show and mocked a Muslims female for not wearing an Hijab,she was a sinner to be judged by Allah in the day of Judgement.
Canadian Muslims have been on the CBC and proudly boasted that the USA derserved the 9/11 attack which include 25 dead Canadians.A local Mosque in Toronto now raises money for a Al-Qaeda family in Canada that praised Osama and suicide murderers.They want us dead and any excuse to blame Jews to justify slaughtering non-Muslims is now the standard procedure for Jihad.
Posted by: ala-sux [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 7:09 PM
Forrestshalom,
I agree with you concerning the arming of Arab/Muslims States by the US and I am totally against this.
Tell me what other Counrty gives the amount of miltary and economic support that the US does to the State of Israel.
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 7:12 PM
Typo: what other "country" gives
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 7:17 PM
to quote the emminent israeli scholar
yohanan ramati:
'there will be a palestinian state if the usa wants
one'.
he said further: israel is in no position to be isolated further in the world. clearly meaning that
tiny israel will do what big 'caesar' insists on.
yes it is a good thing that america currently gives israel financial support. besides being currently a safe haven for jews, it is the only thing that prevents the judgement aspect of the abrahamic covenant (gen 12.3) from kicking in.
america is playing a dangerous and deadly game in
trying to be friends with both sides.
i think therefore that the anti-christ comes out of america to negotiate a 7 year peace agreement with israel and the muslims.
america is the only 'respected' power broker for both sides.
does anyone else see this?
Posted by: forrestshalom [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 7:23 PM
Forestshalom,
It troubles me to see any Jew calling into question the alliance of the United States to Israel.
Go find a copy of "Friends in Deed" by Dan Raviv and Yossi Melman and end your ignorant ranting.
The United States has stood by Israel when all else in the world would have tossed you to the wolves decades ago. Do not start this revisionist dialogue here and especially not now. We have our own problems to deal with in the United States now, and it is due in no small way to our support of Israel amongst other things.
Posted by: Foehammer [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 7:38 PM
i'm gentile not jewish.
but the problem that can't be whisked away is:
the usa is in bed with the devil in saudi arabia.
this has been in developement for over 100 years.
now the devil wants his pound of flesh.
Posted by: forrestshalom [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 7:44 PM
Forrestshalom,
The current Administration, I hope is well aware of the dangers of a Palestinian State.
If the "politically correct" liberal Democrats ever get into the White House the possibilty of a Palesttinian State would be more likely.
The anti-Christ is already in the world and he shall rise from the continent of Europe.
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 7:44 PM
oh really? what's his name?
Posted by: forrestshalom [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 7:48 PM
Forrestshalom,
Gentile? Oh, well, whatever denomination you are, the same statements I made earlier apply. You once again are talking in distortions:
"the usa is in bed with the devil in saudi arabia.
this has been in developement for over 100 years."
Saudi Arabia was established in 1932.
You do the math.
Regardless, not all Saudi Arabians are our enemies, regardless of the nature of Islam. We need to deal with them firmly and harshly if necessary, but to act as if they harbor some great evil is insanity. The great evil that faces us is the continuation of the lies that push us toward some self-fulfilling prophecy from any side of the fence.
If any prophecy must be fulfilled, let it be one of the dignity of mankind and not fruitless destruction at the hands of zealots on all sides.
Posted by: Foehammer [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 7:53 PM
Forrestshalom,
This will be revealed in the future.
I am perfectly sane and quite serious about my statement.
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 7:53 PM
But to be more on the subject......I think that soon people are going to start to have a gutfull of all this.
9/11 has only emboldened these people to think that they will soon take over, their arrogance and irrational logic, along with their maifesto(Quran) is just bringing this out in the open.
The only people playing their game are the fools who think that all this is is just wishfull thinking amongst a few "zealouts".
Just out of curiosity though how do you know that the Anti-Christ is allready in Europe? I dont seem to have any scriptures to prove this?
Posted by: Joe Bananas [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 7:57 PM
definition clarification:
jew: anyone physically descended from ya'acov(jacob).
gentile: anyone else.
christian: a jew or gentile who has personally received Yeshua Ha'Machiach as his messiah and savior by calling upon Him to save him: believing in his hear that he died for their sins and rose again.
israel: the jewish people: whether in the promised land or not. can also mean the physical land that God promised the jews.
church: comprised of those defined as christian above.
christendom: probably the best term used to describe
anyone or anyTHING calling itself "christian". but not fulfilling the biblical definition.
questions?
Posted by: forrestshalom [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 7:59 PM
Forrestshalom......Forgive me but I dont understand what this has to do with Muslims wanting to Kill everyone or subduing them and impose Sharia law on the Earth.
As far as I'm concerned Muslims just want all Jews dead (along with everyone it seems, including and occasionaly some of their own)
Ahhhh what a peacefull religion...
Posted by: Joe Bananas [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 8:02 PM
Ok, now this thread is going in the wrong direction.
Posted by: Foehammer [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 8:03 PM
Foehammer,
I would be interested to know what course of action do you think would be appropriate in dealing with the Islamic Countries, such as Saudi Arabia, Iran and Syria?
"We need to deal with them firmly and harshly if necessary, but to act as if they harbor some great evil is insanity. The great evil that faces us is the"
Whether you believe this or not, there is a Satanic fury behind the "evil" of Islam.
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 8:08 PM
yes i am a gentile according to the biblical given above, but i have a jewish saviour Jesus or
'Yeshua' in hebrew.
americans first made contact with arabia in the late
20th century. they were american missionaries from the reformed church in america. they gained the trust of the arabians: (yes i know saud came later).
this laid the foundation of trust enabling americans to beat the europeans to the oil concession.
i have fascinating info to share on this
strange alliance in the future,and i am trying to find more information on the early formative years.
still this is decidedly not good at all according to the jewish bible: old and new covenants (all written by jews).
Posted by: forrestshalom [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 8:09 PM
islam is satanic to the core:
and the problem goes back to isaac/ishmael.
ultimately satan is in opposition to the Creator God: the God of Israel and His Son Jesus Christ.
the lord is allowing satan to manuever the nations including unbelieving national israel for the grand
finale.
i hope everyone chooses to be on the 'RIGHT' side, and the winning side by the way.
best regards to all: time for my bike ride
shalom
Posted by: forrestshalom [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 8:15 PM
Joe,
I can't go into anymore detail about this now and I am not trying to avoid your question.
Just keep your eye on the events taking place in Europe.
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 8:15 PM
Son of Infidel:
I've discussed this before, but it comes down to this -- before this conflict is over, I am convinced that Islamic nations worldwide and the Muslims here in the United States will all have to answer a call from the West:
Reform Islam and unconditionally cease all terrorist support, or face world war. Islam must answer or this evil will just cycle back and forth for all time until Islam finally attains its ultimate goal of religious dominance at the cost of modernity, humanity and the future.
This event will most likely manifest only after the United States and/or other predominantly Western/Judao-Christian nations suffer catastrophic terrorist acts that finally shake the rest us out of our Utopian-liberal delirium.
The current atmosphere is just the quiet before the storm, in my opinion. It is just a damn shame that it always takes tragedy to awaken Americans.
Posted by: Foehammer [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 8:21 PM
The current atmosphere is just the quiet before the storm, in my opinion. It is just a damn shame that it always takes tragedy to awaken Americans.
Amen to that...
There is one big whopping earth changing event just lurking around the corner.....waiting to happen.
Posted by: Joe Bananas [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 8:40 PM
I appreciate your reply, although unfortunately you are mistaken.
The Islamic countries and Muslims that you speak of will never reform what they believe to be the "truth" about their vile and "evil" ideology.
This belief they have is in their blood,their soul and their very existence.
The threat of force will not deter them from their present course and as you have seen they are more than willing to die for "Allah".
Well planned,clear and decisive military action aganist the countries that harbor, support and finance the Islamo-fascists is what is needed,vailed threats will accomplish nothing.
This current battle is unlike any that the world has faced before.Ultimately this will become the final conflict.
I am afraid that because of man's inability to learn from the past, he will pay a great price in the future.
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 8:55 PM
islamwatcher said, “am an Iraqi christian, and i swear, i wish the USA would airlift every single Iraqi christian, and drop them on Dearnborn michigan. I wish more "christians" in the west would speak out about what happens to us.”
islamwatcher, I hope all is well with your friends and family in Iraq.
Posted by: Sheik Canuck (swt) [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 10:06 PM
islamwatcher,
Can you or someone else point me at any web sites in Baghdad (maybe a newspaper or something?) that would give details on the churches attacked and so forth? Arabic is fine.
Pilgrim
Posted by: Pilgrim [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 10:41 PM
Pilgrim,
Try these; most current news is in the comment sections usually days before we get it. Local news organizations listed on side of blogs like Iraqinet may have more info.
http://messopotamian.blogspot.com/
http://iraqthemodel.blogspot.com/
http://hammorabi.blogspot.com/
Posted by: M [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 10:59 PM
The few comments that I have read here leaves me the the distraught impression that we are terrorized to some degree already.
While we debate the issues and agree on nothing, the barbarians are already in the gate and are employed in key position in places like the FBI.
Short of suitcase nukes going off or something, my sense suggests that the good old Norman Rockwell days in American are gone.
Like it or not, we are going to have to learn to live in perpetual fear like the Isrealies. But give credit to the other side for at least being united in a common cause which unfortunately is to destroy us.
Solutions? Short term, rescue the Christians and Jews in the Islamic countries and stop bikering over small stuff. Then, learn a lesson or two from the crusaders of the middle ages -- at least they put a stop to the Islamic nonesense for a couple of centuries.
Long term, it's in God's hands - not allah's.
Posted by: witness [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 11:18 PM
here's a site i found:
http://assyrianchristians.com/
Posted by: forrestshalom [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 11:22 PM
Forrestshalom,
You might be interested in reading M's comments at UK: Ahmadi Muslims call for 'peaceful jihad' August 1, 2004 10:41 PM
Below is one of these comments.
I would be curious to know your thoughts on this.
"But the majority Saudi people are decent human beings"
M claims that 80% of Saudis are Not Wahabbists and are peace loving Muslims.
PS: Have you read "Haterd's Kingdom" by Dore Gold
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 12:22 AM
witness,
"the barbarians are already in the gate and are employed in key position in places like the FBI".
Could you please elaborate on your above statement.I was not aware that the Islamo-fascists had infiltrated the FBI.
"Like it or not, we are going to have to learn to live in perpetual fear like the Israelis"
The Israelis are a strong,tough and intelligent group of people, that is how they have survived, and they shall continue to do so.
Furthermore, your above comment is dangerous to say the least.Living in fear is exactly what the enemy wants us to do.
Finally, the only thing I fear is the wrath of "God the Father Almighty",not the Islamic-devils.
"Then, learn a lesson or two from the crusaders of the middle ages -- at least they put a stop to the Islamic nonesense for a couple of centuries".
Below are some breif facts about the Crusades.
The first Crusade began in 1096 and they lasted approximately 250 years.During this time there were many atocties, torturing,pillaging and massacring of civilians all in the name of Christ. Many of these victims were Byzantine Christians as well as Jews that were slaugthered.
This rage continued across Europe to Constantinople where in 1204 the city was pillaged and looted of most of its great treasures.
Unfortunately your reference to the Crusades was a poor choice as this was a dark period for the world and a stain on Christianity.
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 1:29 AM
Here's an example of what's wrong with Islam and Muslim leaders.
Canada has about the same percentage of Muslims as Iraq has Christians,the article below shows how hypersensitive and paranoid they can be.
Schools out and kids will be kids,while Churches
in Iraq are being bombed by their Muslim Brother's
and have murdered at least 10 Christians,a Mosque in Hamilton Ontario Canada was hit with raw eggs.
No matter how many freedoms and rights exist for Muslims in Christian based Countries,any level of childish pranks are treated like a major racist attack. Take note on how the leaders want the prank investigated as a hate crime.
**************************************************
Muslims call on officials to condemn mosque vandalism Wednesday, July 14, 2004 5:35 pm
Hamilton mosque vandalized three times in two weeks.
(Ottawa, Canada - 14/07/2004) - The Canadian Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR-CAN) today called on local officials to condemn the recent vandalism of the Umar mosque in Hamilton, Ontario. CAIR-CAN also called on Hamilton police to treat the incident as a possible hate crime.
Recent reports indicate that vandals have thrown eggs at the mosque three times in the last two weeks. Two of the attacks occurred during prayers.In a statement issued today, CAIR-CAN wrote:
"In Islam, mosques are not simply places of worship,they are also social and community centers. "We need to hear a clear message from our officials that this type of hate activity will not be tolerated in Hamilton or in any other Canadian city. We are calling on Hamilton police to investigate this string of vandalism as possible hate crimes.
**************************************************
Meanwhile, CAIR remains mute on beheadings and blames the 9/11 attack on the JEWS,lets see them blame the Iraq bombings of Churches on the JEWS
or a plot by BUSH to justify the war and win the upcoming election later this year.
I don't see love or compassion and foregiveness being displayed by Islamic cleric's,Muslims learn
the values of Islam from Imam's and their local leaders. Harbouring hate and revengeful anger towards Jews and Christians is a learned behaviour
taught in the Mosques and community centre's.
Posted by: ala-sux [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 1:56 AM
It is difficult to insure liberty, when the friends you support are really sneaky two faced islamic fucks-I guess we cannot blame the FBI or CIA or any intelligence agency who hires lets say an arabic translator-I guess the only option they have is either hire a white guy-or hire the middle eastern guy and follow his every move-of course then we would not be supporting equal oppurtunity or we would be infringing on civil liberties-son of infedil is right--the only solution to this problem is to hunt down every one of the bastards-incorporating democracy is not an outright solution, but it has proven pretty successful in S. America and Asia. Witness, your comments about living in perpetual fear, Im sorry if you feel this way, but to live in fear is no way to live at all. Until I start seeing ragheads in the street with guns or car bombs-im not gonna fear shit-especially not with Mr. Smith and Mr. Wesson in my belt. And it seems that right now the terrorists or whatever they are supposed to be called-it seems they have their hands full trying to keep the democracy from being created. I think that we are starting to learn the tricks of the trade, and i have a good feeling that depending on who is president next term, Iraq actually might see some better days. As far as suitcase nukes being in the U.S.---i guess it is quite possible-but being that there are alot of phyics going into developing a bomb-wether it will detonate by fission or fusion, the various types of uranium needed, wether or not what they have is weapon grade uranium or uranium from an energy plant, without some serious brains it will be hard for them to create a bomb with the affects of Hiroshima. Of course u never know how lucky they can get-but be assured the government has devices for finding this shit-if they can find marijuana growing in someone's house via the usage of ultraviolet light sensors in aircraft-i would think they would have devices to detect nuclear substances.
Posted by: resister [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 2:08 AM
Resister makes some good points. Although we should all be aware of the Jihad being waged against us it would be a big mistake to see everything that's happening as "doom and gloom". A couple of my friends visited the site and, although they found it informative, they were left feeling "overwhelmed by so many negative stories." Let's try and see the positive side of the situation - people ARE waking up to the threat from Islam (just look at how many new members are posting here). Articles against Islam are starting to appear in the printed media that would have been unthinkable just months ago. I really believe the reason why Muslims in the West are suddenly becoming so pushy is because they sense their time is running out. They know we infidels are starting to catch on to their plans for jihad and they're having to speed up their efforts at turning us into dhimmis. But they are thus showing their hand too soon - they are still the minority in the West and despite the gains the liberal-left have given them the backlash is just around the corner. Sure it will be a long, painful struggle to rid ourselves of Islam's cult of death but we are already aware of who are friends and enemies are - we have the advantage.
LOVE LIFE - HATE ISLAM Spread the word....
Posted by: Son Of Albion [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 6:54 AM
I´m sad for the obligation of christian arabs to leave Middle East and going to USA, they´re clever minorities, very culte and it´s a tragedy, is a tragedy than you have to leave your country for your religion, but I would like to make a question, is in USA protected?, is in Canada protected?, in Europe I don´t ask because I´m spanish and I know the answers, I receive news from VOM, and they´re interesting.
Greetings in Christ
Posted by: Franze [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 7:23 AM
oh really? what's his name?
Posted by: forrestshalom at August 1, 2004 07:48 PM
Koffee Anan and the UN
Posted by: Mullah_Abu_Bin_Boobie [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 7:35 AM
M and forrestshalom,
Thank you very much for the web references.
Pilgrim
Posted by: Pilgrim [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 7:47 AM
Franze,
Christianity in the United States and in Canada so far is doing well.
How long this will last I can not say, as the politically correct left wing liberals continue to be enablers of , apologists for, and sympathizers with the Islamo-fascists.
May the grace and peace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 7:50 AM
A general note, out of context, about the word "Allah." The note is not directed at anybody in particular, and I'm going to make it as dry and factual as I can. :-)
As ever, folks should correct me if I am wrong.
The word "Allah" is just the Arabic word for "God." In the Arabic & English Bibles I obtained from the International Bible Society at the opening of the Gospel according to John, for example, the Arabic text uses "Allah." (That text is "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." NIV)
By simple logic and convention, we would say that the English word for "Allah" is "God." But many people use "Allah" instead of "God" in English to indicate they are talking about God-as-expounded-and-worshiped-by-Muslims as distinguished from God-as-expounded-and-worshiped-by-Jews-and-Christians.
This obviously emphasizes whatever differences exist and hides whatever commonalities exist.
End of note.
Pilgrim
Posted by: Pilgrim [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 8:22 AM
Iraq's Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani issued a statement on the bombings. Link to the news item itself at the end. Can anybody find me the Arabic text online?
----quote
"We denounce and condemn those terrible crimes... We should all be working together as a government and a people in order to put an end to the attacks against Iraqis," it added.
"We stress the need to respect the rights of Christians in Iraq and those of other religious faiths and their right to live in their home, Iraq, peacefully."
Sistani, based in the holy city of Najaf, south of Baghdad, is the most prominent and widely respected of Iraq's Shiite majority.
----end quote
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/afp/20040802/wl_mideast_afp/iraq_attacks_churches_reax_sistani
Pilgrim
Posted by: Pilgrim [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 8:48 AM
Son of Infidel,
Sorry for the confusion, but I did not say 80% of Saudis were peace loving muslims; they very well may be, but I have no way of knowing other than by talking to people in the area and asking questions. That was the tail end of a post from someone in the area who should know. I have talked with Saudis who say it is 50%.
I do not minimize the threat the US and the West is under from radical Islam. I take it very seriously which is why I supported the war-to change the face of the ME so Islamists do not continue to grow in numbers as they have done left unchecked for decades.
It is all very well for any of us to thump our chests and say just nuke them. That is never going to happen, nor should it. It then becomes imperative to deal with things in other ways. Yes, we continue hunting down who we can, work within the UN (right-lol), enlist help from other countries and all that stuff, but that is short term. In the long term, the only viable way to protect ourselves is to promote reforms, particularly in the ME. It is happening now, and OBL and the war in Iraq has essentially forced the issue, but it's going to be a slow process.
It would seem many of you here have a problem with Islam; is it Islam that is the problem or those who are radical about it? Sorry, I am a non-practicing Catholic; so don't go there. I am also Republican, so don't waste your breath.
We need to do everything we can to protect ourselves, but I would hope America could come up with something better than just nuke them all.
Posted by: M [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 9:00 AM
BTW, this is the site that I pasted info about 80% of Saudis being "peace-loving". Please note #3; it's worth the time to read thru posts. Not everyone is a boogeyman.
http://www.mahmood.tv/index.php/blog/659
Re(2): Calm down people...
Posted by: Mahmood Al-Yousif on June 19, 2004 03:52 PM
I understand your frustration. Believe me I do, however let me tell you that we (Arabs and Muslims) are even more frustrated with this situation, much more than you can imagine:
1. We have no say in the way our governments are run.
2. We CANNOT (the Arab and Muslim majority) show our sympathies on our cuffs for fear of persecution and execution.
3. For the most part, we don't care about religion, any religion, we have just become to sickened by the crimes perpetrated in religions' name.
4. We cannot even SAY what I have in 3 above for IMMEDIATELY being labeled as heretics, and that will result in just as immediate death penalty for apostasy by our Islamist friends.
5. We crave liberalism, but our liberals are treated like pariahs by our governments who can't seem to decide where their support should be.
6. Our governments cannot show that they want to progress and support liberals for the perceived threat on its existence. However some have done it in varying successes like Turkey and Tunisia.
7. Secularism is like a death penalty to any Arab/Muslim government (almost) and that's why we see the very first thing in any constitution is that it is based on Islam, if a constitution was present in the first place. What happened at the EU last night with Italy and Poland wanting to add "based on Christianity and European culture" just sickened me. Here we are aspiring to separate religion from politics and we see "the first world" countries wanting to impose texts that would take them back a few hundred years.
8. There is real and present danger for anyone and their families should they be seen as opposition in most if not all of our countries.
9. Free thought is not considered a virtue, but insolence.
10. We don't have any freedoms of the press to speak of, hence, they have to toe the official line, and provision of alternate thoughts and tolerance killed at infancy.
11. No Arab/Muslim government enjoys sympathy from their own people. We have learnt to not trust our governments for generations, hence, there is real absence of a sense of patriotism.
12. 11 would lead to not caring about whatever happens in our environment with thoughts ranging from "if it didn't happen to me or my family, I don't care" to "they deserve it, let the government clean up the mess, it's no skin off my nose."
These are some of the feelings I hear when interacting and traveling through the Gulf countries and speaking to other Arabs and Muslims.
I hope you understand the immense frustration we feel. It's not lethargy or not caring for our fellow human being. We do. We feel for everyone, but it is very difficult for an Arab to show emotion because of this ever present fear of state-sponsored-intimidation.
Should we just sit back and give up though? No chance. This situation IS changing to the better. Slowly mind you but is changing.
The irony is however is that Osama bin-Laden has served as a catalyst for this change! We despise what this animal has done for our way of life and reputation, but through his heinous acts it has FORCED change!
So we've back to the beginning of your assumption: Should change be imposed?
I think whether we like it or not it IS being and will continue to be imposed by the "west" and by the likes of bin-Laden. It's how we deal with that change and the opportunities presented by these factors is the question, and I don't have the answer for that one yet.
I believe that maybe there should be another way to impose this change, and that is by exploring partnerships and the world powers providing catalysts for change. Maybe a carrot and a stick scenario is one way: fix up your country or we won't trade with you...
But if we both - as peoples - just get frustrated and start throwing accusations and bombs at each other, we won't be fixing up any mess but adding to it.
Let's partner for peace. We KNOW that we have problems, you KNOW that you have problems, so how about calming down and looking at problems through the thoughts of partnership and try to fix them? Wouldn't that be a catalyst for change for the better?
or am I again just being naive?
Posted by: M [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 9:05 AM
M
for your consideration, here is the simple truth as expressed by Ibn Warraq:
There are moderate Muslims. Islam itself is not and can not be moderate.
Right, or it would take to remove to many verses from the Quran, don't you think so?
Posted by: Nikoz [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 10:20 AM
Furthermore,
how do we tell the wheat from the chaff, that is, distingush Ahl al-Jihad from from Ahl as-Salam?
And let me just once more remind you of Islamic taqiyya - concealment for the good of the Din (faith). Hypocrisy unlimited, in other words.
The problem is that NO Muslims can be trusted in this day and age. The stakes are too high.
Posted by: Nikoz [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 10:28 AM
moslems are the first victims of their ideology.
we can't know what percentage of them are 'radical' or 'moderate', so we need to keep our focus on the ideology.
since the ideology is impossible to change due to its historic and "divine" sanction, what moderate moslems say is irrelevant, since their ideology teaches them to lie to non/moslems.
to achieve total freedom from 'allah's' clutch,
i recommend that moslems receive Jesus Christ as their Saviour: this will cure them of their hatred.
yes i have read 'hatred's kingdom'.
its a helpful book, but like many secular observations: it doesn't go far enough for the solution.
islam will not be reformed:
but moslems can leave it if they choose, even if they live in a closed islamic state like arabia.
they can read a bible online and hear the Gospel message thru the power of the internet.
Posted by: forrestshalom [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 10:41 AM
M, do you really think you can divorce "religion" (i.e. an understanding and affirmation of moral truth) from politics? It's been tried -- in the USSR. In Cambodia. In Vietnam. In China. I'm afraid that law must concern itself with issues of right and wrong and therefore must align itself with principles derived from some source in order to stand. Would you want to live in a state where the only thing that prevented people from doing things was the fear of being caught? Here in the United States, we've had a president who thought that way and it messed us up for eight long years. No more.
As for what faith should we derive our precepts from, we know that atheism and Islam both don't work. Let's look at history to see what does work.
Posted by: NoMoreJihad [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 10:44 AM
Exactly. This continuation of appeasement of Islam is a tired joke and is going to cost too many innocent lives in the United States and the West.
Isn't it clear now, after the attacks on the churches in Iraq, that the Islamists will not stop until this becomes a cut and dried religious war for all involved?
Islam is the enemy. Anyone that that wishes to not be on the wrong side in the coming events can make a choice -- get involved in reforms of Islam to make it a true religion of peace that can exist in the modern world, or failing that, leave Islam or convert to one of the world's truly peaceful major religions like Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism or Buddhism.
The truth hurts.
Posted by: Foehammer [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 10:49 AM
Btw, leaving Islam is not a choice for most of the Muslim world because apostates are dealt with brutally more often than not.
Men are typically executed if apostasy is proven, and the women are beaten senseless until they repent and return to Islam or die from their wounds.
I also do not like anyone talking in terms that secularism does not go far enough. Secularism is what makes Christianity tolerable in our modern culture, lest anyone forgets, it was not so long ago that witches were burned at the stake and non-believers were put on torture wheels in Spain.
Don't start damning secularist ideas as being less wise than Christian ones, or you may very well start sounding like the Taliban yourselves.
Think about that.
God gave us brains to use them, not to live with blinders on.
Posted by: Foehammer [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 10:54 AM
M,
You have stated that you are a Republican, although your comments reflect the thinking of a "liberal" Democrat.Possibly you are a closet case liberal.
Basic "facts" about Islam
Islam is a religion of legalistic demands and merciless vengeance.It's "allged" prophet,Mohammed,(an avowed pedophile and child molester),when leading the Muslim armies in their conquests gave the non-believers three choices: 1) profess the faith of Islam,2) pay tribute or 3) die by the sword.
Islam is an ideology of intolorance,hate,subjugation and vindictive violence.
The Qu'an has no moral center,it preaches militant hate and death and destruction to the Infidel.
Islam, over the past 14 centuries has had a long and bloody history and it is not about to reform it's self now.In fact, with the spread of Wahabbism, Islam has only become more violent.
Your sanctimonious and appeasing posture, quite frankly makes me sick.
It is this very thinking that allowed Nazism and Fascism to spread.
The very center of Islam's core is evil.
History has taught us that evil can not be appeased, nor compromised with and never negotiated with.
The only way to deal with evil, is to destroy it!
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 11:33 AM
Son of Infidel,
I am a 53 year old mother of 3 married to an exMarine; please do no insult me by calling me a closet liberal. But if I were one, that is none of your business.
I fully understand the message regarding infidels in the Qu'an, so spare me your copy and paste skills. Are their muslims that practice Islam to the letter, certainly, and they are the enemy. I submit there are many other muslims that do not and are no different than a Catholic who believes in God but has an abortion. Your failure to accept that fact and call for their destruction along with everyone else is no different than OBL and company. No doubt God would see you burning in hell a long time for that one; you and OBL will have ALOT to talk about. Don't ever take the moral high ground with me, cause you are simply WRONG.
Posted by: M [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 12:10 PM
Resister writes:
"Witness, your comments about living in perpetual fear, Im sorry if you feel this way, but to live in fear is no way to live at all. Until I start seeing ragheads in the street with guns or car bombs-im not gonna fear shit-especially not with Mr. Smith and Mr. Wesson in my belt. "
Witness responds:
Resister, go ahead and light up a smoke while I pour you another drink. Obviously, you are a West Point graduate.
No doubt you have the bad-guys on the run!
Given your strategic and tactical insights, I'm sure we'll have the troops "home by Christmas." With generals like you on our side, we in the west can sleep better tonight -- nuke suticases or not.
Pligram writes:
"The word "Allah" is just the Arabic word for "God." In the Arabic & English Bibles I obtained from the International Bible Society at the opening of the Gospel according to John, for example, the Arabic text uses "Allah."
Witness response
Pilgram, yours is the more liberal interpretation that I have been privy to over the years. A more conservative definition holds that the title "God" is attributed to a specific deity with unique attributes and who claims exclusive title to the term "God."
As such, the dieties "Allah" and "Yahweh" are separate and distinct persona who lay compeating claim to the tile "God."
Son of Infidel wrties:
Below are some breif facts about the Crusades.
The first Crusade began in 1096 and they lasted approximately 250 years.During this time there were many atocties, torturing,pillaging and massacring of civilians all in the name of Christ. Many of these victims were Byzantine Christians as well as Jews that were slaugthered.
This rage continued across Europe to Constantinople where in 1204 the city was pillaged and looted of most of its great treasures.
Unfortunately your reference to the Crusades was a poor choice as this was a dark period for the world and a stain on Christianity."
Witness responds:
The atrocities that you attribute to Christianity are sidebars in every conflagration. There are always innocents that forefit life and limb in the ugly business we call "war."
My allusion was to the over-arching response by the Christian West to the common threat posed by Islamists who started the invasions in the first place. The unity of purpose was a consideration for both sides during the period -- to wit: "destroy them." Granted there must have been nuasances as there always will be in these matters, but the commonality of purpose is an intriging feature of the crusade period.
In this context, my observation is that today the commonality of purpose on the part of the west is lacking. This to our detriment.
But with Resister leading the charge, I'm sure we're in good hands -- no?
To M:
I feel your pain to coin a phrase. You are not in a position that I envy and suggest that you need to make some very difficult choices. No doubt that you realize that already.
So than, what to do? God knows.
Posted by: witness [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 12:12 PM
M,
To compare the Islamo-terrorist-scum to people that recognize the real threat that they pose and understand what is necassry to deal with this threat, is idiotic and ignorant.
Futhermore, I am not impressed that you are married to an ex marine and to say that I will burn in hell is an over emotional reaction on your part.
If we follow your advice we will either all be dead or bowing to Mecca.
PS: I do not "copy and paste" I use my brain, a part of your body in need of great improvement.
PSS:I still say that you are a closet case "liberal"
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 12:37 PM
From the Voice of America:
Iraqi Church Bombings Seen as Attempt to Split Religious Groups
Several of Iraq's top religious leaders have denounced Sunday's deadly bombings of five Christian churches in Baghdad and the northern city of Mosul. Iraqi government officials say those who attacked the churches were trying to drive a wedge between Christians and Muslims...
follow the link for more...
http://www.voanews.com/article.cfm?objectID=1DBE848E-D990-4A28-872081B3F11FF9E5
Posted by: al-Canine [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 12:41 PM
Here, from a former advisor to the US Department of State, is the truth about the church bombings.
Allahu akbar
Posted by: Reza [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 12:44 PM
witness,
Your interpertation of the Crusades is in error, and purely self serving.
Do some "research" and you will know the "truth".
"Like it or not, we are going to have to learn to live in perpetual fear like the Israelis"
Based on your above statement, I suggest that you get some tranquilizers to take while you are cowaring in the corner.
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 12:57 PM
With regard to crusading
I'm writing my degree on the First Crusade, specifically the relationship of the Franks and Eastern Christians.
Witness is totally right about the common purpose notion. Son of Infidel gets it all wrong. I'll presume to explain.
The crusading ideal and the real backbone of the First Crusade was a war of liberation.
Those who took the cross after pope Urban II's mighty sermon at Clermont went off to set free the Holy City from the Muslim yoke. Along with that, the pope urged the Franks to help break the chains of fellow Christians in the East, whose lands had been laid waste by the infidels.
And verily, this spirit of unity and belief in God's support was to result in the Crusade's overwhelming success.
It is also noteworthy that the vast majority of the indigenous Christians proved supportive and helpful, take for example the Armenians of Edessa or the Maronites of Lebanon.
The eventual fall of the crusader states stemmed from the inability to cooperate with Byzantium and the mutual hostility initially triggered by Bohemond of Otranto, that's true.
For more information see the faximile of M. W. Baldwin's excellent account.
http://libtext.library.wisc.edu/HistCrusades/
Posted by: Nikoz [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 12:57 PM
Nikoz,
Please enlighten me, were there any Jews or Christians killed by the Crusaders, because if you had read my previous comments that is the point I was making.
"Needless to say, Peter's Quest was doomed. They behaved poorly along the route, thieving food and ransacking homes for supplies. The worst was the persecution of the Jews before even leaving Europe".
"The Jewish peoples had lived in relative quiet amongst the Christians up to this point. Though not accepted in the Communities, they were tolerated and business was conducted in a relatively civilized manor".
"The Jewish peoples had their own communities and though they were looked down upon, they were not opposed till now. Peter's army lacked funds. It was suggested that if the Crusaders could kill the enemies of God abroad, then what's to stop them at home. Let it be noted that the Church did not condone this. Bishops locally preached against this, and some were attacked for their preaching. The Bishop of Spier saved many lives, but at Warms the Bishop was driven from his home and the Jews he sheltered were slaughtered. Same thing at the town of Mainz. The Bishops could not stop Peter's army. They continued their rage across Europe to Constantinople".
"Arriving there, Alexis didn't know what to make of them. Not wanting them to stay to cause further trouble in his city, he made arrangements to have them shipped over the Bosphorus river to Anatolia. Five days after they arrived, in July 1096, they were moved to Turkey. Most never saw the Grand city of Constantinople much to Alexis' relief".
"Once in Anatolia, Peter's followers felt it was time to start Crusading in earnest, torturing, pillaging and massacring indiscriminately. However, as it turned out, most of their victims were Byzantine Christians who lived in and around Nicaea".
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 1:19 PM
Witness,
Thanks for the concern, but I have been visiting JW for a very long time and understand the intolerance of some of the thought police here. My mother always taught me to do the right thing even if it hurts, and I am way too old to be told what I should believe.
While I might dream of mining the borders (I really mean that), stopping all immigration, deport all foreigners, and stop trading with the world and put Americans back to work being selfsufficient, that is never going to happen. Neither is nuking Mecca or destroying Islam. What we are going to kill billions of muslims now (good with the bad)because they practice some form of Islam? Don't think so. So others can rant on and make themselves feel pretty important by accomplish nothing. I would no sooner buy into that crap than I would with what OBL is selling. Wrong is wrong, pure and simple. We all have choices, and we can be part of the problem or part of the solution.
Posted by: M [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 1:39 PM
Nikoz,
Here is more "factual" information about the Crusades.
Good luck with your writing.
"The Seljuk Turks gained control of Jerusalem in 1071. Seljuk rule of Palestine lasted less than 30 years. In 1098, the Fatimids, based in Egypt, took advantage of the Seljuk struggles with the Christian crusaders from Europe. They allied themselves with the Crusaders and captured Jerusalem, Jaffa and other parts of Palestine in 1098. However, the Crusaders broke the alliance and invaded Palestine about a year later, capturing Jaffa and Jerusalem in 1099. A great slaughter of the Jewish and Muslim defenders followed, and no Jews were allowed to live in Jerusalem. The crusaders held the city until 1187, when the Muslim ruler Saladin attacked Palestine and took control of Jerusalem. The Crusaders held a dwindling area along the coast of Palestine, under treaty with Saladin. However, the Crusaders broke the treaty with Saladin and later treaties as successive crusades tried to recapture Jerusalem and were defeated. The Crusaders were finally evicted with the capture of Acre by Muslim forces in 1291. During the post-crusade period, Crusaders raided the coast of Palestine frequently. To minimize the gains from these raids, the Muslim rulers pulled back population from the coasts and practiced a scorched earth policy. The result was to greatly depopulate and impoverish the coast of Palestine for hundreds of years".
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 1:45 PM
Son of Infidel
Touche, but that was the so-called Poor People's Crusade, a false start of what the pope had envisaged. I am perfectly aware of the atrocities committed by the Germans under Emich von Leiningen and Peter the Hermit's rabble.
The reasons were these: a really bad ignorance of the crowd and the long-awaited desire for plunder.
But this wasn't the First Crusade, I'd like you to note. I'm in no way advocating this ill-conceived enterprise that predated the main expedition.
Secondly, about the 'factual information' you've just provided. It's inaccurate I have to say.
The Crusaders and the Fatimids were never able to conclude that treaty of partitioning Syria. The Egyptians took an uncompromising stance that Jerusalem should belong to them. So it made the treaty unacceptable for the Franks whose divinely sanctioned goal the Holy City was.
If you wish I could look up where I picked that in Baldwin's 'The First Hundred Years'.
Moreover, the Crusaders first offered the Fatimid governor to surrender before finally assaulting the city in July 1099.
Also pay heed that the Muslims had taken care to banish all Christians before the Franks were there.
If you have any criticism of the First Crusade proper, you're welcome to bring it up.
Posted by: Nikoz [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 2:04 PM
And just another point.
The Muslims used to hate us just in the same way they do today. Every single conquest of theirs was reckoned divinely justified. As regards the Franks who set out to recapture what the Muslims had no rights for, Ibn al-Athir (a prominent Arabic source of the late 12th c.) garbles facts and vilifies them as best he can.
E.g.: 'The capture of Jerusalem by the Franj, la'ana-hum allah' (may allah curse them).
Posted by: Nikoz [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 2:14 PM
Son of Infidel writes:
witness,
Your interpertation of the Crusades is in error, and purely self serving.
Witness responds:
I see. How exactly than am I being served?
Son of Infidel writes:
Do some "research" and you will know the "truth".
Witness responds:
Ouch! I have done considerable "research" for many years on this and many subjects. However, which "truth" would you like me to know exactly?
Quoting Witness, Son of Infidel writes:
"Like it or not, we are going to have to learn to live in perpetual fear like the Israelis"
Based on your above statement, I suggest that you get some tranquilizers to take while you are cowaring in the corner.
Witness responds:
Perhaps you can belly on up to the bar with resister over yonder and light up a smoke while I pour both of you a couple more drinks.
I enjoy learning from scholars like yourself. Perhaps, if all the rest of us plebecites just listened to your disserations, the world would be a better, happier, place.
Obviously you are either a Harvard or a Yale man -- maybe even Oxford. Let us bow to your knowledge!
The Isrealies are living in fear every single day but I don't have the impression that they are "cowering in any corner."
No doubt that your battlefied experience has taught you that "fear" is a necessary thing that keeps you alive and prevents you from making fatal mistakes while the lead flies -- so that eventually you can liquidate your enemy.
But you are a military super-hero no doubt, so if you would deign to dispense your pontifications on the matter, the rest of us will sit on the edge of our seats and listen and try to learn from you
Posted by: witness [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 2:19 PM
Nikoz,
I think you have missed my point that the Crusaders slaugthered many innocent Jews as well as other non- Muslims, as such the Crusades were a dark period in history and a stain on Christianity.
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 2:22 PM
M writes:
"Wrong is wrong, pure and simple."
Witness responds:
Pardon me if I don't ask you to belly up to the bar with the other two guests.
I'm not sure they would be fit company for you.
Nevertheless, I raise my glass in a toast to your good health.
Posted by: witness [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 2:27 PM
Witness
You have a point here. Because the time is probably near when we'll have to struggle and fight side by side.
I recently came across an Aussie's suggestion that we start learning ninjutsu to be able to defend ourselves against the mussies. He meant it:)
Posted by: Nikoz [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 2:27 PM
Son of Infidel
I've heard someone say that war has an ugly face.
I sincerely condemn these massacres.
On the other hand, you seem to have missed Witness's point about a common purpose, or unity as I see it.
That's what helped the Crusaders attain their goal and flush the Muslims out of the lands they'd subjugated under the 'rightly-guided' caliph 'Omar (may allah's piss be upon him).
Posted by: Nikoz [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 2:34 PM
witness,
"Like it or not, we are going to have to learn to live in perpetual fear like the Israelis"
Based on your above statement, I suggest that you get some tranquilizers to take while you are cowaring in the corner.
"The Isrealies are living in fear every single day but I don't have the impression that they are "cowering in any corner."
Next time read my comments correctly.
I did not state that the Israelies cowar in corners, only pretentious, pompous, intellectual jackasses like you do.
PS: Thanks for the invitation for the cocktail, but I don't drink.
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 2:37 PM
In my opinion it isn´t a good idea, speaking about crusades, well the crusades were a great mistake, totally in cases like the crusade against Bizance but It happened almost 800 years, we deserve to speak more current things because the yihad against the armenian people, one million of people killed, the slavism of serbian, romanian and bulgarian people for the Ottoman Empire and killings like the 1071 of the muslims yihad against hindus, that there are infidels and not to deserve the dhirmi, only have the right to decide how to die.
In these moments where we live the protestants and catholics don´t kill each other, the orthodox don´t have so hate to the other christians groups( the exception is Russia), and in the Western there are a lot of freedom, but in the muslim world there aren´t freedom now.
The men and women are the same?, if the answer is yes, the religious freedom have to be imposed in this countries and in the communist, but there are a lot of people that don´t agree with this, my question is ?
What is most important Democracy or Freedom Religion?, Because in almost all muslim countries the freedom religion isn´t a popular concept, greetings
Posted by: Franze [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 3:04 PM
Franze,
Thank you for your comments.
I agree with you 100%.
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 3:18 PM
Can we focus on current events?
Posted by: Bob Owens [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 3:19 PM
FYI
IRAQ THE MODEL
Monday, August 02, 2004
This is a trap.
Yesterday’s attacks on the churches were not very unexpected because the terrorists consider destroying this country their primary mission. They have attacked all Iraqis without discrimination, they murdered the She’at Muslims near their holy shrines, they attacked Sunni mosques, they attacked the IP near their stations and they assassinated our politicians and leaders and they will keep trying to attack anyone and anything to stop us from building this country but they will not defeat us, unless we submit to their evil plans; something we will never do.
I’ve tried to ask as many Iraqis as I could about their feelings and all Iraqis I met showed anger, contempt and bitterness about what happened but noone gave signs of despair.
I’ve watched many reactions on the internet and I found that many people considered what happened an aggression against Christians (and that this is what the terrorists want) while we in Iraq see it as a crime against Iraqis and this reaction is the last thing they want.
However, how the West views this is more important than our reactions as the message this time was sent to the West not to us.
This time they chose to attack what they think is a soft target and I believe that their choice is based on two sick wishes:
The first one: they think that by terrorizing the Iraqi Christian community the Iraqi Christians will get panicked and choose to leave Iraq and thus creating a situation of insecurity and distrust among Iraqis.
The second one: with these attacks they want to drag the West to believe that this a war on Christianity
and that it came as a reaction to the “war on Islam”. They want to give their war a religious shape to inflame religious sensitivities between Christians and Muslims and they want the Muslims in the West to be persecuted so that they can use it to make simple minded Muslims believe that the war on terror is a crusade.
I can say that I’m sure that the 1st one will not find a measurable success because as I mentioned earlier; in Iraq we think about the latest attacks just the same way we do about any previous ones.
As for the 2nd one, well... it’s up to you in the West and you can determine the way it affects you.
You need to be far-sighted when you decide how to respond to this test and I believe you can do that. So please, don’t fall in this trap.
Posted by: M [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 3:22 PM
More on church bombings from Sam.
Monday, August 02, 2004The Ugly Barbarism
The news about Zarqawi was just rumours! Al Zarqawi thugs carried out one of the most barbaric ugly acts against the worship places in Iraq. After the attacks against the Shiaa holy places in which hundreds were massacred he and his thugs directed their devilish intention yesterday against the Iraqi Christians' holy and historical places (Churches) in Baghdad and Mosel.
The aim is not to try to knock the Iraqi unity only but to kill as many as they can among the Iraqis who are not belonging to their doctrine of Wahabism and Salafism. The last two of course are two faces for one coin monetized in Saudi Arabia.
We saw that ugly face not against the US targets alone but in Afghanistan where Talabans trying to convert the people there into monkeys living in a jungle. They not only hate the others who don't think like them but they hate the history which is not suiting their retarded mentality. They started destroying the historical places in Najad and Hijaz (Saudi Arabia now). They destroyed all the historic places belonged to the first Muslims and Arabs!
The Christians of Najran came to see Prophet Mohammad for a dialogue and it was a Sunday! They asked the Prophet that they would like to do their prayer and he offered them his Mosque to use it for their prayer! This is the real Islam not Islam of the Mohammad Bin Abd Al Wahab which gave birth to Bin Laden and Zarqawi thugs.
In Iraq we are one nation, Christians, Sabians, Muslims as Sunni & Shia, and other religions. The Churches which were hit by the barbaric thugs are not holy places for the Christians alone but they are holy places for all of the Iraqis irrespective of their religions. They are holy for being used by human being and by Iraqis our brothers and sisters. They are now holy places for every Iraqi!
Our brothers and sisters who have been killed in the attacks of the Iraqi Churches are not only Christians but Muslims as well. The Iraqi blood mixed together to tell the thugs that we are one body and the foreign bodies are them. Sooner the Iraqi body will expose and destroy them for ever.
Posted by: M [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 3:25 PM
More about church attacks.
Monday, August 02, 2004
“Beware the wrath of the patient when finally aroused”
Hi,
The atrocity has backfired. If the intent of the criminals was to incite sectarian violence between Moslems and Christians; then they have achieved exactly the opposite. In my living memory I have never witnessed such upsurge of sympathy for the Christian community as what is happening right now. The people are really aroused now. The new Iraqi TV stations (including Al Sharqiya) are doing non-stop coverage of the event. Everybody has to proclaim his denunciation in no uncertain terms, even the hypocrites perhaps with some shy and stammering insinuations of the usual charges that perhaps it was the Americans or the Jews etc., sounding unconvinced themselves of these slanders; because even an absolute imbecile can easily guess who is behind this – and in fact, I don’t think anybody has any serious doubt about the identity of the perpetrators.
These hate creatures are beyond redemption. We can perhaps talk about dealing with the root causes of terrorism etc. etc., but this will apply to preventing future growth of the cancer, but the present cancerous cells are incurable. The only fitting solution for these is amputation.
Perhaps the most fitting solution is to prepare a great big pond of “Ordure", to put it genteelly, and drown them all in it – Bullshit to Bullshit and Excrement to Excrement, and Good Riddance for ever, brothers - beards, turbans and all; and we don't think we are going to miss you much.
And then, we shall all live happily ever after.
Salaam
Sunday, August 01, 2004
In the Name of God the Compassionate, the Merciful
The God of All
This is the limit. Ever since Mesopotamia came into being from the very first birth of civilization, never has terror of this kind been known. A coordinated attack on six Christian churches at the time of Sunday prayers, to the horror of unsuspecting worshipers: unbelievable act of cowardice and treachery that is unprecedented in all our six thousand years of history. And what scenes! makes the blood boil and freeze at the same time. Elderly men and women and young ones of our dear Iraqi Christian community with bloodied faces coming out of their hour of peaceful worship; dazed and unbelieving; and deaths, and destruction of some of the most ancient and historical Christian churches in the World. Never in our whole history has there been such an attack on the Christian community in particular, for it is a peaceful and well beloved of all Iraqis; and besides, its members are the remaining descendants of the original ancient Mesopotamians; the Chaldeans, the Assyrians, the Babylonians etc. etc.
What can we say? One is speechless, numb, shocked, bleeding internally, and angry; oh, so angry, never been angrier in a whole lifetime.
Whoever did this and whoever organized and financed this; whoever remotely tries to find excuses and justification for this, whoever even keeps quiet or is indifferent to this here and everywhere, in the East or in the West; must be pronounced excommunicate from membership of the sensible human race. All those calling for retreat and submitting to the intimidation of these monstrous zombies are traitors and cowards and will not reap but their own destruction when horror comes to their own front doors. Those who think that turning their backs and escaping the confrontation to barricade themselves in their secluded islands, is going to save their skins, are in profound and fatal delusion.
The horror will come to your own cities and your own houses. The time to fight is now and here; and the security of the Iraqis and your own security is one and indivisible.
Humans of the World: Remember.
Posted by: M [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 3:33 PM
Son of Infidel writes:
August 01, 2004
Bomb blasts rock Iraqi churches
But of course, this conflict has nothing to do with religion. From the BBC, with thanks to Susan:
The first two blasts happened near churches in the busy Karada shopping area of Baghdad, sending a plume of smoke across the neighbourhood.
At least two people are reported to have been killed in what appears to be a new tactic by insurgents.
A third blast was reported a short time later in Mosul, where a police station had been bombed earlier in the day.
Witnesses said a car bomb detonated outside an Armenian church as an evening service was getting under way.
Shattered glass
It blew out stained glass windows, and scattered pieces of hot metal across the street. The wreckage of at least three burned out cars was left in its wake.
"I saw injured women and children and men, the church's glass shattered everywhere. There's glass all over the floor," Juliette Agob, who was inside the church at the time, was quoted by the Associated Press as saying.
Ten minutes later, as the emergency services raced to the scene, a second blast went off outside a Syrian Catholic church some 400 metres from the first church.
An ambulance driver said two people had been killed.
At around the same time, a suspected car bomb went off outside a church in Mosul.
Posted at August 1, 2004 12:56 PM
Comments
(Note: Comments on articles are unmoderated, and do not necessarily reflect the views of Jihad Watch or Robert Spencer. Comments that are off-topic, offensive, slanderous, or otherwise annoying may be summarily deleted. However, the fact that particular comments remain on the site IN NO WAY constitutes an endorsement by Robert Spencer of the views expressed therein.)
I am an Iraqi christian, and i swear, i wish the USA would airlift every single Iraqi christian, and drop them on Dearnborn michigan. I wish more "christians" in the west would speak out about what happens to us.
Ps. Christians are harmless, thats why sadam used use to cook his food.
Posted by: islamwatcher at August 1, 2004 01:14 PM
Does anyone know the name or other specific information about any of the three churches mentioned in the news item?
Pilgrim
Posted by: Pilgrim at August 1, 2004 01:14 PM
Hey Catholics:
Reza's calling you "muslims" over on the Dhimmi Watch July 31 "Tariq Ramadan . . . " thread.
Posted by: CGW at August 1, 2004 01:21 PM
OT:
Great article by a CANADIAN, a must-read.
GOD BLESS AMERICA
Posted by: CGW at August 1, 2004 01:31 PM
Hey folks:
MEMRI reports as follows regarding the Saudi terror suspect who turned himself in under the Amnesty:
http://www.memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD75404
A few weeks after Al-Omari was turned in, the Saudi newspapers reported that the Saudi authorities had paid off Al-Omari's debts. According to Al-Watan, Othman Al-Omari's mother expressed her "gratitude and appreciation of Prince Muhammad Bin Naif for his noble initiative to pay off the debts of her son, who recently turned himself in to the Saudi authorities." The mother recounted that "Prince Muhammad Bin Naif contributed the entire sum, totaling 170,000 SR [$45,300], as well as a grant of 30,000 SR [$8,000] to Al-Omari's family. In addition, a monthly stipend of 3,000 SR [$800] will be paid to Othman Al-Omari's children, as well as a salary of 2,000 SR [$530] to Othman Al-Omari himself." [3]
And more recently, they have posted that the Saudi Gazette has a message of thanks from Al-Omari's mother in it. The Saudi Gazette is and English language propaganda arm of the Saudis. So, of course, your humble researcher attempted to find out if what MEMRI had posted was true. And, it must be true, because the Gazette has blocked access to every issue of the Gazette for the whole month of July.
Posted by: Mentat at August 1, 2004 01:36 PM
In 1933, five months after the British left, and having promised not to harm minorities, Muslims in Iraq attacked and murdered tens of thousands of helpless Assyrian Christians. Some say the figure was "only" 70,000. William Saroyan, of Armenian ancestry, wrote about the massacres; he called his book "70,000 Assyrians." Perhaps it is time to reprint it, along with all the eyewitness testimonies of Armenian survivors of the attacks, not based on ethnicity but rather on hatred of the "giavour" or Infidel (or "Christiand dog") which in 1894-95 and to much more murderous effect, in 1915 and the years following, by Turks, and Kurds, and even by the Arabs of the Syrian Desert who would pick off Armenian women and girls as they made their way to the relative safety of Christian communities in such places as Haleb (Aleppo) and Beirut.
The attacks on Christian churches, and on Chistians in Iraq, is simply one more chapter in the long history, recorded by Bat Ye'or in "The Decline of Eastern Christianity Under Islam," a book that should be read by policymakers, and by all those who take an interest in what Islam holds in store for Infidels.
And, of course,one need only look at the slow asphyxiation of the Copts in Egypt, of the once-thriving Christian civilization of North Africa (home of both Tertullian and St. Augustine), of formerly-Christian Byzantium with its vast riches and advanced civilization, of Christians today anywhere that Muslims predominate -- in Pakisan and the Sudan and Indonesia -- or even where they form a minority sufficiently strong to feel it can go on the attack (as in the Philippines, and in Bosnia and Kosovo).
How much evidence, from the texts of Islam, and from the behavior of Muslims through time and space, does one need? What further evidence does one require?
Posted by: Hugh at August 1, 2004 02:06 PM
islamwatcher,
You said, "I wish more 'christians' in the west would speak out about what happens to us."
Where would I obtain information about what is happening to you? I can read Arabic poorly, French better, and English best. I can speak Arabic somewhat better than I read it.
To whom should I speak out?
If you wish to contact me directly, use mt1016b-tango@yahoo.com
Pilgrim
Posted by: Pilgrim at August 1, 2004 02:10 PM
This was mentioned in passing on a local chicago news talk show, just before the cut to something more important -- sports!
It is sad because the priorities of the American media are incomprehensible to me.
Now if this were a mosque, well now, that would be a hate crime and the media would go nuts!
Posted by: witness at August 1, 2004 02:26 PM
Wait a minute, according to that NYT beacon of secular platitudes, Nicholas Kristof, believing Christians are equally, a danger to civilization as we in the West know it, as believing Muslims are.
So what if the Koran sounds more like Mein Kempf than the Bible, so what if the word "Islam" literally translates into "submission", peace thru conquest. So what if the more violent passages of the Koran abrogate the earlier tolerant passages. So what if even moderate Muslims living the US talk on their blogs about the coming Islamic caliphate, and a Muslim in the white house.
We need to turn the discussion to True & False. Was the emperor of Japan, God? NO. Because the Japanese sincerely believed he was, did that make it so? NO. Does Allah, who needs the constant killing off of unbelievers, sound like he loves the little children? I don't think so. Instead he encourages his Islamic followers to raise their own children to become living bombs. Too, its their only assurance of Salvation with a lust-filled heaven in return. Does Allah sound anything like God to you?
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. -1 John 4:1
Posted by: daughter of patriots at August 1, 2004 02:31 PM
To Islamwatcher:
I am catholic too, spanish, but catholic, am very sad for what was happening, can you explain to us, if the situation for christians is better than before, and I would like to say that christians iraquis dont´have to leave Iraq, I dont´want a islamic republic, the christians in Iraq and like other countries are very culte and without them the arabic countries and non-arabic muslims countries would be in the Stone Age.
Greetings and my prayings for this christian and catholic people murdered in the name of Islam.
Posted by: Franze at August 1, 2004 02:52 PM
islamwatcher and pilgrim,
The Voice of the Martyrs is a non-profit, interdenominational organization with
a vision for aiding Christians around the world who are being persecuted for their beliefs.
VOM was founded by the Reverand Richard Wurmbrand, who spent 14 years in Romanian prisons.He wrote a book called Tortured for Christ as well as others.
Below is the link to their website.I hope this will be of help.
http://www.persecution.com/
Posted by: Son of Infidel at August 1, 2004 03:05 PM
Pilgrim, thankyou for the solidarity, God bless all of you. Among iraqis the news travels fast, and through our media locals.
For western people, you need to read between the lines, as sad as it seems, they will cover it breifly. The best thing is to write to your congress and politicians, and ask them to forward the immigration process of the middle east christians. Remeber, muslims would arent refugues when they leave their islamic utopias.
Thankyou everyone, please keep us in prayer.
Posted by: islamwatcher at August 1, 2004 03:07 PM
Islamwatcher,
I am an American Christian and have already been praying for Iraqi Christians and am part of the Voice of the Martyr supporters. My first thought when I heard about the church blasts was that we should send planes to pick up all the Iraqi Christians and resettle them in the United States. If our FBI needs translators, why not the Iraqi Christians. Please keep posting here so we know how things are going. I will be contacting my govt officials about the plight of Iraqi Christians tomorrow. Be strong and courageous. Remember what Peter wrote about:
12Dear friends, do not be surprised at the painful trial you are suffering, as though something strange were happening to you. 13But rejoice that you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when His glory is revealed.
Jesus has already overcome the world and is with you as you go through the fire. I would prefer that all Christians in Muslim countries would come here to the U.S. if that were possible...because the judgement of the Islamic nations is at hand; Muslims are not fighting us, they are fighting Jesus since Christ lives in us. Their time is short. Remember Psalm 2 and Psalm 37. Don't be discouraged, we will see the day when every Muslim knee will bend to Jesus and every Muslim will confess that He is Lord not their false deity...we will even see the false prophet of Islam and OBL bowing to Jesus before Jesus removes them from us forever.
Remembering you in prayer and asking for your protection and deliverance!
Posted by: Abby at August 1, 2004 03:36 PM
this would be a great opportunity for 'brother' bush
our 'christian' president to demonstrate his faith:
evacuate all professing christians out of iraq and bring them to the usa.
(but i won't hold my breath on it)
by the way i came across an excellent article by
hugh fitzgerald entitled
'islam for the perplexed'
http://mailman.io.com/pipermail/freemanlist/2004-July/002457.html
Posted by: forrestshalom at August 1, 2004 04:04 PM
The sad thing is that tomorrow, the entire arab media will be describing these bombings as the work of Zionists/Mossad/Jews/Coalition Forces. A new conspiracy will be afoot.
I agree with everyone: Let's get the Christians out now!
Posted by: 3812Michelle at August 1, 2004 04:16 PM
Later reports say that six churches, not three, were attacked.
Pilgrim
Posted by: Pilgrim at August 1, 2004 04:18 PM
Forrestshalom,
If the President of the United States was a Jew, what actions would he take to help other Jews out side of the US.
I am geting a bit tired of your biased anti-Christian/Bush Rhetoric.
Futhermore, the Bush Administration has been very supportive of "Israel", more so than previous Administrations, MR. "Shalom"
You seem to have some type of issue with Christianty.
"lets face the TRUTH".
"the west: led by 'christian' america is in an alliance with the muslims".
"the war against 'terrorism' is only a ploy".
Posted by: forrestshalom at July 30, 2004 11:46 AM
Posted by: Son of Infidel at August 1, 2004 05:22 PM
I am in canada, and i am going to be writing to my politicians to forward some of these people in. Let me tell you this, muslims, like the leeches they are, do pose as christians when they want to get to western countries, and many western immigration officials do ask them to recite certain prayers (this has happened to much of my family)
I press my american brothers and sisters to do the same, or any westerners for that matter.
I can remember seeing pics and reading about how Israel airlifted the remaining jews in iraq to safety, i wish the U.S. could do this.
God bless the U.S.A.
Posted by: islamwatcher at August 1, 2004 05:23 PM
islamwatcher,
Here is the US "all" politicians play the game of "politics" and as such it is unlikely and "unfortunate" that any action will be taken to airlift Christians out of Iraq or any other place in the world.
At this time George Bush is the best option we have.Until there is a better one, I shall support him.
The Voice of the Martyrs is a good organization.I recommend that you contact them.
May the grace and peace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you evermore.
Son of Infidel
Posted by: Son of Infidel at August 1, 2004 06:18 PM
the war against islam will not be won by killing
a few or alot of muslims here and there.
it will be won once the ideology/religion is identified and dispatched. something that bush can't
see.
i don't think that this war will ulimately be won by humans, as it is diaobolical(satanic:hence spiritual
in nature).
a jewish american president? good idea. hopefully he would help his fellow jews in trouble like sharon
and israel does.
church going clinton and now bush has not lifted a finger to help any professing christian in muslim lands.
a HUGE difference! :)
Posted by: forrestshalom at August 1, 2004 06:25 PM
Just look at the climate of fear these barbarians have thrust our way of life into: "Hercules" police on library steps in NYC armed like soldiers.
Should we accept this or should we fight?
It is time to hold Islam to account for perpetuating this climate of hate.
Are you reading this, Saudi Arabia?
Are you reading this, mullahs in Iran?
Are you reading this, Syrian jihadists?
Are you reading this, Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt?
Welcome to the New Crusade.
America once had a climate where no Communist was welcome. Let us now allow no Muslim here that condones "Jihad." Reform or be expelled. That's the only wisdom I can see for dealing with Islam in the United States.
Al Qaeda -- attack us if you will, but be forwarned now -- the climate in the United States is like the foundering of your twisted cult on the razors edge and whichever way you push us it will cut badly for you.
Posted by: Foehammer at August 1, 2004 06:36 PM
I remember being very excited when I discovered VOM. Their materials are very professional and it seemed they had some good projects and actions going.
Over the year or so that I received their materials I formed an impression that I am posting here in order that it may be corrected if it is wrong. My impression was that VOM concentrated almost exclusively on Protestant Christians, especially Evangelicals. The item I remember -- but this is only my memory, and may well be selective or fallible! -- was an item on some persecutions on Cyprus, and Orthodox Christians weren't mentioned at all (either as having been persecuted or even as part of the scenery). FYI, I am Orthodox Christian.
Nonetheless, VOM is the first place I would try to get to notice what is happening to Christians in Iraq. And for all I know they've already done articles on it. :-)
Pilgrim
Posted by: Pilgrim at August 1, 2004 06:37 PM
Here is a possible resource but I know nothing about them so please don't flame me, just enlighten me.
Middle East Council of Churches
http://www.mecchurches.org/
Pilgrim
Posted by: Pilgrim at August 1, 2004 06:42 PM
an iraq (babylon) empty of jews?
i think this is highly significant prophetically.
during the great tribulation the jews are warned to flee mystery babylon.
obviously jews aren't returning to literal babylon/iraq soon.
my leading (in fact only) candidate for the accursed
"mystery babylon" is america.
america is the largest outpost of diaspora jews in the world: about 6 million.
God warns them to 'come out of her (mystery babylon)
before the final blows of judgement fall.
personally i think it is an islamic nuclear attack...
Posted by: forrestshalom at August 1, 2004 06:44 PM
And here is the only list of Baghdad Christian churches I've been able to find. I don't know how old it is. It may help identify the churches attacked today.
http://www.chaldeansonline.net/church/christian.html
Pilgrim
Posted by: Pilgrim at August 1, 2004 06:45 PM
as for the usa or bush being 'friends' with israel:
I DOUBT IT! this would be a funny statement if it were not so tragic and full of dire consequences.
how can the usa be the FRIENDS of both saudi arabia and israel?
the west led by the usa has armed the muslim world
and they in turn are using them on us.
another analogy from the book of daniel chapter 2:
iron/clay
iron:western arms and technology
clay:muslim oil
hint: "a'rav"
Posted by: forrestshalom at August 1, 2004 06:58 PM
Iraqi Christians of whatever denomination,come and join your brothers and sisters in the West.
We will welcome you with open arms. Apply as a persecuted minority for residence in New Zealand.
Posted by: Morgane at August 1, 2004 07:00 PM
Forrestshalom,
Israel is a "Jewish State" and was created for the preservation and continuance of the Jewish people.
Ezekiel 11:17
17 Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.
The United States is a nation of many faiths.
If President Bush were to bring persecuted Christians from other parts of the world to this country, or for that matter if any other President were to do this, they would be obligated to do the same for people of other faiths.
As such your previous comments are in error.
However I do agree with you concerning the diabolical "evil" of Islam.
The prophesy of the Book of Revelation will be fulfilled.
Posted by: Son of Infidel at August 1, 2004 07:01 PM
clarification:
as for the usa or bush being 'friends' with israel:
I DOUBT IT! this would be a funny statement if it were not so tragic and full of dire consequences.
-------------
i meant to say 'tragically false' in the above statement.
Posted by: forrestshalom at August 1, 2004 07:02 PM
There is an inherentl differerence between Middle eastern Muslims and Middle Eastern Christians who liv ein the West.
And everywhere the story is the same.....Its the Muslims who cause the most trouble, show no respect,and are involved in subversive activities.....
The case ir closed.....and so are the socialists eyes it seems.
Posted by: Joe Bananas at August 1, 2004 07:08 PM
mystery babylon has many faiths alright.
and the king of false gospels: islam has arrived
to punish.
don't get uptite,
this is my opinion and i could be wrong.
i often wish i was wrong: i don't want my children
to live in a jew-less islamically enlightened country.
Posted by: forrestshalom at August 1, 2004 07:09 PM
Here's a link to a Canadian Islamic site that feels the media should be censored from printing the truth about the Saudis funding Wahabbism in Canada.
http://www.canadianislamiccongress.org/mc/media_communique.php?mcdate=2004-07-31
**************************************************
You'll get a laugh out of their "Islamophobe of the year" section,even though an ex-member from
the C.I.C. that now runs the www.muslimcanadiancongress.org has stated in public that Saudis fund seminars and speakers to push Wahabbism in Canada,the C.I.C. leader,Mohamed Elmasry insists the claims are really Islomophobia. Elmasry was on a Canadian show and mocked a Muslims female for not wearing an Hijab,she was a sinner to be judged by Allah in the day of Judgement.
Canadian Muslims have been on the CBC and proudly boasted that the USA derserved the 9/11 attack which include 25 dead Canadians.A local Mosque in Toronto now raises money for a Al-Qaeda family in Canada that praised Osama and suicide murderers.They want us dead and any excuse to blame Jews to justify slaughtering non-Muslims is now the standard procedure for Jihad.
Posted by: ala-sux at August 1, 2004 07:09 PM
Forrestshalom,
I agree with you concerning the arming of Arab/Muslims States by the US and I am totally against this.
Tell me what other Counrty gives the amount of miltary and economic support that the US does to the State of Israel.
Posted by: Son of Infidel at August 1, 2004 07:12 PM
Typo: what other "country" gives
Posted by: Son of Infidel at August 1, 2004 07:17 PM
to quote the emminent israeli scholar
yohanan ramati:
'there will be a palestinian state if the usa wants
one'.
he said further: israel is in no position to be isolated further in the world. clearly meaning that
tiny israel will do what big 'caesar' insists on.
yes it is a good thing that america currently gives israel financial support. besides being currently a safe haven for jews, it is the only thing that prevents the judgement aspect of the abrahamic covenant (gen 12.3) from kicking in.
america is playing a dangerous and deadly game in
trying to be friends with both sides.
i think therefore that the anti-christ comes out of america to negotiate a 7 year peace agreement with israel and the muslims.
america is the only 'respected' power broker for both sides.
does anyone else see this?
Posted by: forrestshalom at August 1, 2004 07:23 PM
Forestshalom,
It troubles me to see any Jew calling into question the alliance of the United States to Israel.
Go find a copy of "Friends in Deed" by Dan Raviv and Yossi Melman and end your ignorant ranting.
The United States has stood by Israel when all else in the world would have tossed you to the wolves decades ago. Do not start this revisionist dialogue here and especially not now. We have our own problems to deal with in the United States now, and it is due in no small way to our support of Israel amongst other things.
Posted by: Foehammer at August 1, 2004 07:38 PM
i'm gentile not jewish.
but the problem that can't be whisked away is:
the usa is in bed with the devil in saudi arabia.
this has been in developement for over 100 years.
now the devil wants his pound of flesh.
Posted by: forrestshalom at August 1, 2004 07:44 PM
Forrestshalom,
The current Administration, I hope is well aware of the dangers of a Palestinian State.
If the "politically correct" liberal Democrats ever get into the White House the possibilty of a Palesttinian State would be more likely.
The anti-Christ is already in the world and he shall rise from the continent of Europe.
Posted by: Son of Infidel at August 1, 2004 07:44 PM
oh really? what's his name?
Posted by: forrestshalom at August 1, 2004 07:48 PM
Forrestshalom,
Gentile? Oh, well, whatever denomination you are, the same statements I made earlier apply. You once again are talking in distortions:
"the usa is in bed with the devil in saudi arabia.
this has been in developement for over 100 years."
Saudi Arabia was established in 1932.
You do the math.
Regardless, not all Saudi Arabians are our enemies, regardless of the nature of Islam. We need to deal with them firmly and harshly if necessary, but to act as if they harbor some great evil is insanity. The great evil that faces us is the continuation of the lies that push us toward some self-fulfilling prophecy from any side of the fence.
If any prophecy must be fulfilled, let it be one of the dignity of mankind and not fruitless destruction at the hands of zealots on all sides.
Posted by: Foehammer at August 1, 2004 07:53 PM
Forrestshalom,
This will be revealed in the future.
I am perfectly sane and quite serious about my statement.
Posted by: Son of Infidel at August 1, 2004 07:53 PM
But to be more on the subject......I think that soon people are going to start to have a gutfull of all this.
9/11 has only emboldened these people to think that they will soon take over, their arrogance and irrational logic, along with their maifesto(Quran) is just bringing this out in the open.
The only people playing their game are the fools who think that all this is is just wishfull thinking amongst a few "zealouts".
Just out of curiosity though how do you know that the Anti-Christ is allready in Europe? I dont seem to have any scriptures to prove this?
Posted by: Joe Bananas at August 1, 2004 07:57 PM
definition clarification:
jew: anyone physically descended from ya'acov(jacob).
gentile: anyone else.
christian: a jew or gentile who has personally received Yeshua Ha'Machiach as his messiah and savior by calling upon Him to save him: believing in his hear that he died for their sins and rose again.
israel: the jewish people: whether in the promised land or not. can also mean the physical land that God promised the jews.
church: comprised of those defined as christian above.
christendom: probably the best term used to describe
anyone or anyTHING calling itself "christian". but not fulfilling the biblical definition.
questions?
Posted by: forrestshalom at August 1, 2004 07:59 PM
Forrestshalom......Forgive me but I dont understand what this has to do with Muslims wanting to Kill everyone or subduing them and impose Sharia law on the Earth.
As far as I'm concerned Muslims just want all Jews dead (along with everyone it seems, including and occasionaly some of their own)
Ahhhh what a peacefull religion...
Posted by: Joe Bananas at August 1, 2004 08:02 PM
Ok, now this thread is going in the wrong direction.
Posted by: Foehammer at August 1, 2004 08:03 PM
Foehammer,
I would be interested to know what course of action do you think would be appropriate in dealing with the Islamic Countries, such as Saudi Arabia, Iran and Syria?
"We need to deal with them firmly and harshly if necessary, but to act as if they harbor some great evil is insanity. The great evil that faces us is the"
Whether you believe this or not, there is a Satanic fury behind the "evil" of Islam.
Posted by: Son of Infidel at August 1, 2004 08:08 PM
yes i am a gentile according to the biblical given above, but i have a jewish saviour Jesus or
'Yeshua' in hebrew.
americans first made contact with arabia in the late
20th century. they were american missionaries from the reformed church in america. they gained the trust of the arabians: (yes i know saud came later).
this laid the foundation of trust enabling americans to beat the europeans to the oil concession.
i have fascinating info to share on this
strange alliance in the future,and i am trying to find more information on the early formative years.
still this is decidedly not good at all according to the jewish bible: old and new covenants (all written by jews).
Posted by: forrestshalom at August 1, 2004 08:09 PM
islam is satanic to the core:
and the problem goes back to isaac/ishmael.
ultimately satan is in opposition to the Creator God: the God of Israel and His Son Jesus Christ.
the lord is allowing satan to manuever the nations including unbelieving national israel for the grand
finale.
i hope everyone chooses to be on the 'RIGHT' side, and the winning side by the way.
best regards to all: time for my bike ride
shalom
Posted by: forrestshalom at August 1, 2004 08:15 PM
Joe,
I can't go into anymore detail about this now and I am not trying to avoid your question.
Just keep your eye on the events taking place in Europe.
Posted by: Son of Infidel at August 1, 2004 08:15 PM
Son of Infidel:
I've discussed this before, but it comes down to this -- before this conflict is over, I am convinced that Islamic nations worldwide and the Muslims here in the United States will all have to answer a call from the West:
Reform Islam and unconditionally cease all terrorist support, or face world war. Islam must answer or this evil will just cycle back and forth for all time until Islam finally attains its ultimate goal of religious dominance at the cost of modernity, humanity and the future.
This event will most likely manifest only after the United States and/or other predominantly Western/Judao-Christian nations suffer catastrophic terrorist acts that finally shake the rest us out of our Utopian-liberal delirium.
The current atmosphere is just the quiet before the storm, in my opinion. It is just a damn shame that it always takes tragedy to awaken Americans.
Posted by: Foehammer at August 1, 2004 08:21 PM
The current atmosphere is just the quiet before the storm, in my opinion. It is just a damn shame that it always takes tragedy to awaken Americans.
Amen to that...
There is one big whopping earth changing event just lurking around the corner.....waiting to happen.
Posted by: Joe Bananas at August 1, 2004 08:40 PM
I appreciate your reply, although unfortunately you are mistaken.
The Islamic countries and Muslims that you speak of will never reform what they believe to be the "truth" about their vile and "evil" ideology.
This belief they have is in their blood,their soul and their very existence.
The threat of force will not deter them from their present course and as you have seen they are more than willing to die for "Allah".
Well planned,clear and decisive military action aganist the countries that harbor, support and finance the Islamo-fascists is what is needed,vailed threats will accomplish nothing.
This current battle is unlike any that the world has faced before.Ultimately this will become the final conflict.
I am afraid that because of man's inability to learn from the past, he will pay a great price in the future.
Posted by: Son of Infidel at August 1, 2004 08:55 PM
islamwatcher said, “am an Iraqi christian, and i swear, i wish the USA would airlift every single Iraqi christian, and drop them on Dearnborn michigan. I wish more "christians" in the west would speak out about what happens to us.”
islamwatcher, I hope all is well with your friends and family in Iraq.
Posted by: Sheik Canuck (swt) at August 1, 2004 10:06 PM
islamwatcher,
Can you or someone else point me at any web sites in Baghdad (maybe a newspaper or something?) that would give details on the churches attacked and so forth? Arabic is fine.
Pilgrim
Posted by: Pilgrim at August 1, 2004 10:41 PM
Pilgrim,
Try these; most current news is in the comment sections usually days before we get it. Local news organizations listed on side of blogs like Iraqinet may have more info.
http://messopotamian.blogspot.com/
http://iraqthemodel.blogspot.com/
http://hammorabi.blogspot.com/
Posted by: M at August 1, 2004 10:59 PM
The few comments that I have read here leaves me the the distraught impression that we are terrorized to some degree already.
While we debate the issues and agree on nothing, the barbarians are already in the gate and are employed in key position in places like the FBI.
Short of suitcase nukes going off or something, my sense suggests that the good old Norman Rockwell days in American are gone.
Like it or not, we are going to have to learn to live in perpetual fear like the Isrealies. But give credit to the other side for at least being united in a common cause which unfortunately is to destroy us.
Solutions? Short term, rescue the Christians and Jews in the Islamic countries and stop bikering over small stuff. Then, learn a lesson or two from the crusaders of the middle ages -- at least they put a stop to the Islamic nonesense for a couple of centuries.
Long term, it's in God's hands - not allah's.
Posted by: witness at August 1, 2004 11:18 PM
here's a site i found:
http://assyrianchristians.com/
Posted by: forrestshalom at August 1, 2004 11:22 PM
Forrestshalom,
You might be interested in reading M's comments at UK: Ahmadi Muslims call for 'peaceful jihad' August 1, 2004 10:41 PM
Below is one of these comments.
I would be curious to know your thoughts on this.
"But the majority Saudi people are decent human beings"
M claims that 80% of Saudis are Not Wahabbists and are peace loving Muslims.
PS: Have you read "Haterd's Kingdom" by Dore Gold
Posted by: Son of Infidel at August 2, 2004 12:22 AM
witness,
"the barbarians are already in the gate and are employed in key position in places like the FBI".
Could you please elaborate on your above statement.I was not aware that the Islamo-fascists had infiltrated the FBI.
"Like it or not, we are going to have to learn to live in perpetual fear like the Israelis"
The Israelis are a strong,tough and intelligent group of people, that is how they have survived, and they shall continue to do so.
Furthermore, your above comment is dangerous to say the least.Living in fear is exactly what the enemy wants us to do.
Finally, the only thing I fear is the wrath of "God the Father Almighty",not the Islamic-devils.
"Then, learn a lesson or two from the crusaders of the middle ages -- at least they put a stop to the Islamic nonesense for a couple of centuries".
Below are some breif facts about the Crusades.
The first Crusade began in 1096 and they lasted approximately 250 years.During this time there were many atocties, torturing,pillaging and massacring of civilians all in the name of Christ. Many of these victims were Byzantine Christians as well as Jews that were slaugthered.
This rage continued across Europe to Constantinople where in 1204 the city was pillaged and looted of most of its great treasures.
Unfortunately your reference to the Crusades was a poor choice as this was a dark period for the world and a stain on Christianity.
Posted by: Son of Infidel at August 2, 2004 01:29 AM
Here's an example of what's wrong with Islam and Muslim leaders.
Canada has about the same percentage of Muslims as Iraq has Christians,the article below shows how hypersensitive and paranoid they can be.
Schools out and kids will be kids,while Churches
in Iraq are being bombed by their Muslim Brother's
and have murdered at least 10 Christians,a Mosque in Hamilton Ontario Canada was hit with raw eggs.
No matter how many freedoms and rights exist for Muslims in Christian based Countries,any level of childish pranks are treated like a major racist attack. Take note on how the leaders want the prank investigated as a hate crime.
**************************************************
Muslims call on officials to condemn mosque vandalism Wednesday, July 14, 2004 5:35 pm
Hamilton mosque vandalized three times in two weeks.
(Ottawa, Canada - 14/07/2004) - The Canadian Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR-CAN) today called on local officials to condemn the recent vandalism of the Umar mosque in Hamilton, Ontario. CAIR-CAN also called on Hamilton police to treat the incident as a possible hate crime.
Recent reports indicate that vandals have thrown eggs at the mosque three times in the last two weeks. Two of the attacks occurred during prayers.In a statement issued today, CAIR-CAN wrote:
"In Islam, mosques are not simply places of worship,they are also social and community centers. "We need to hear a clear message from our officials that this type of hate activity will not be tolerated in Hamilton or in any other Canadian city. We are calling on Hamilton police to investigate this string of vandalism as possible hate crimes.
**************************************************
Meanwhile, CAIR remains mute on beheadings and blames the 9/11 attack on the JEWS,lets see them blame the Iraq bombings of Churches on the JEWS
or a plot by BUSH to justify the war and win the upcoming election later this year.
I don't see love or compassion and foregiveness being displayed by Islamic cleric's,Muslims learn
the values of Islam from Imam's and their local leaders. Harbouring hate and revengeful anger towards Jews and Christians is a learned behaviour
taught in the Mosques and community centre's.
Posted by: ala-sux at August 2, 2004 01:56 AM
It is difficult to insure liberty, when the friends you support are really sneaky two faced islamic fucks-I guess we cannot blame the FBI or CIA or any intelligence agency who hires lets say an arabic translator-I guess the only option they have is either hire a white guy-or hire the middle eastern guy and follow his every move-of course then we would not be supporting equal oppurtunity or we would be infringing on civil liberties-son of infedil is right--the only solution to this problem is to hunt down every one of the bastards-incorporating democracy is not an outright solution, but it has proven pretty successful in S. America and Asia. Witness, your comments about living in perpetual fear, Im sorry if you feel this way, but to live in fear is no way to live at all. Until I start seeing ragheads in the street with guns or car bombs-im not gonna fear shit-especially not with Mr. Smith and Mr. Wesson in my belt. And it seems that right now the terrorists or whatever they are supposed to be called-it seems they have their hands full trying to keep the democracy from being created. I think that we are starting to learn the tricks of the trade, and i have a good feeling that depending on who is president next term, Iraq actually might see some better days. As far as suitcase nukes being in the U.S.---i guess it is quite possible-but being that there are alot of phyics going into developing a bomb-wether it will detonate by fission or fusion, the various types of uranium needed, wether or not what they have is weapon grade uranium or uranium from an energy plant, without some serious brains it will be hard for them to create a bomb with the affects of Hiroshima. Of course u never know how lucky they can get-but be assured the government has devices for finding this shit-if they can find marijuana growing in someone's house via the usage of ultraviolet light sensors in aircraft-i would think they would have devices to detect nuclear substances.
Posted by: resister at August 2, 2004 02:08 AM
Resister makes some good points. Although we should all be aware of the Jihad being waged against us it would be a big mistake to see everything that's happening as "doom and gloom". A couple of my friends visited the site and, although they found it informative, they were left feeling "overwhelmed by so many negative stories." Let's try and see the positive side of the situation - people ARE waking up to the threat from Islam (just look at how many new members are posting here). Articles against Islam are starting to appear in the printed media that would have been unthinkable just months ago. I really believe the reason why Muslims in the West are suddenly becoming so pushy is because they sense their time is running out. They know we infidels are starting to catch on to their plans for jihad and they're having to speed up their efforts at turning us into dhimmis. But they are thus showing their hand too soon - they are still the minority in the West and despite the gains the liberal-left have given them the backlash is just around the corner. Sure it will be a long, painful struggle to rid ourselves of Islam's cult of death but we are already aware of who are friends and enemies are - we have the advantage.
LOVE LIFE - HATE ISLAM Spread the word....
Posted by: Son Of Albion at August 2, 2004 06:54 AM
I´m sad for the obligation of christian arabs to leave Middle East and going to USA, they´re clever minorities, very culte and it´s a tragedy, is a tragedy than you have to leave your country for your religion, but I would like to make a question, is in USA protected?, is in Canada protected?, in Europe I don´t ask because I´m spanish and I know the answers, I receive news from VOM, and they´re interesting.
Greetings in Christ
Posted by: Franze at August 2, 2004 07:23 AM
oh really? what's his name?
Posted by: forrestshalom at August 1, 2004 07:48 PM
Koffee Anan and the UN
Posted by: Mullah_Abu_Bin_Boobie at August 2, 2004 07:35 AM
M and forrestshalom,
Thank you very much for the web references.
Pilgrim
Posted by: Pilgrim at August 2, 2004 07:47 AM
Franze,
Christianity in the United States and in Canada so far is doing well.
How long this will last I can not say, as the politically correct left wing liberals continue to be enablers of , apologists for, and sympathizers with the Islamo-fascists.
May the grace and peace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.
Posted by: Son of Infidel at August 2, 2004 07:50 AM
A general note, out of context, about the word "Allah." The note is not directed at anybody in particular, and I'm going to make it as dry and factual as I can. :-)
As ever, folks should correct me if I am wrong.
The word "Allah" is just the Arabic word for "God." In the Arabic & English Bibles I obtained from the International Bible Society at the opening of the Gospel according to John, for example, the Arabic text uses "Allah." (That text is "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." NIV)
By simple logic and convention, we would say that the English word for "Allah" is "God." But many people use "Allah" instead of "God" in English to indicate they are talking about God-as-expounded-and-worshiped-by-Muslims as distinguished from God-as-expounded-and-worshiped-by-Jews-and-Christians.
This obviously emphasizes whatever differences exist and hides whatever commonalities exist.
End of note.
Pilgrim
Posted by: Pilgrim at August 2, 2004 08:22 AM
Iraq's Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani issued a statement on the bombings. Link to the news item itself at the end. Can anybody find me the Arabic text online?
----quote
"We denounce and condemn those terrible crimes... We should all be working together as a government and a people in order to put an end to the attacks against Iraqis," it added.
"We stress the need to respect the rights of Christians in Iraq and those of other religious faiths and their right to live in their home, Iraq, peacefully."
Sistani, based in the holy city of Najaf, south of Baghdad, is the most prominent and widely respected of Iraq's Shiite majority.
----end quote
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/afp/20040802/wl_mideast_afp/iraq_attacks_churches_reax_sistani
Pilgrim
Posted by: Pilgrim at August 2, 2004 08:48 AM
Son of Infidel,
Sorry for the confusion, but I did not say 80% of Saudis were peace loving muslims; they very well may be, but I have no way of knowing other than by talking to people in the area and asking questions. That was the tail end of a post from someone in the area who should know. I have talked with Saudis who say it is 50%.
I do not minimize the threat the US and the West is under from radical Islam. I take it very seriously which is why I supported the war-to change the face of the ME so Islamists do not continue to grow in numbers as they have done left unchecked for decades.
It is all very well for any of us to thump our chests and say just nuke them. That is never going to happen, nor should it. It then becomes imperative to deal with things in other ways. Yes, we continue hunting down who we can, work within the UN (right-lol), enlist help from other countries and all that stuff, but that is short term. In the long term, the only viable way to protect ourselves is to promote reforms, particularly in the ME. It is happening now, and OBL and the war in Iraq has essentially forced the issue, but it's going to be a slow process.
It would seem many of you here have a problem with Islam; is it Islam that is the problem or those who are radical about it? Sorry, I am a non-practicing Catholic; so don't go there. I am also Republican, so don't waste your breath.
We need to do everything we can to protect ourselves, but I would hope America could come up with something better than just nuke them all.
Posted by: M at August 2, 2004 09:00 AM
BTW, this is the site that I pasted info about 80% of Saudis being "peace-loving". Please note #3; it's worth the time to read thru posts. Not everyone is a boogeyman.
http://www.mahmood.tv/index.php/blog/659
Re(2): Calm down people...
Posted by: Mahmood Al-Yousif on June 19, 2004 03:52 PM
I understand your frustration. Believe me I do, however let me tell you that we (Arabs and Muslims) are even more frustrated with this situation, much more than you can imagine:
1. We have no say in the way our governments are run.
2. We CANNOT (the Arab and Muslim majority) show our sympathies on our cuffs for fear of persecution and execution.
3. For the most part, we don't care about religion, any religion, we have just become to sickened by the crimes perpetrated in religions' name.
4. We cannot even SAY what I have in 3 above for IMMEDIATELY being labeled as heretics, and that will result in just as immediate death penalty for apostasy by our Islamist friends.
5. We crave liberalism, but our liberals are treated like pariahs by our governments who can't seem to decide where their support should be.
6. Our governments cannot show that they want to progress and support liberals for the perceived threat on its existence. However some have done it in varying successes like Turkey and Tunisia.
7. Secularism is like a death penalty to any Arab/Muslim government (almost) and that's why we see the very first thing in any constitution is that it is based on Islam, if a constitution was present in the first place. What happened at the EU last night with Italy and Poland wanting to add "based on Christianity and European culture" just sickened me. Here we are aspiring to separate religion from politics and we see "the first world" countries wanting to impose texts that would take them back a few hundred years.
8. There is real and present danger for anyone and their families should they be seen as opposition in most if not all of our countries.
9. Free thought is not considered a virtue, but insolence.
10. We don't have any freedoms of the press to speak of, hence, they have to toe the official line, and provision of alternate thoughts and tolerance killed at infancy.
11. No Arab/Muslim government enjoys sympathy from their own people. We have learnt to not trust our governments for generations, hence, there is real absence of a sense of patriotism.
12. 11 would lead to not caring about whatever happens in our environment with thoughts ranging from "if it didn't happen to me or my family, I don't care" to "they deserve it, let the government clean up the mess, it's no skin off my nose."
These are some of the feelings I hear when interacting and traveling through the Gulf countries and speaking to other Arabs and Muslims.
I hope you understand the immense frustration we feel. It's not lethargy or not caring for our fellow human being. We do. We feel for everyone, but it is very difficult for an Arab to show emotion because of this ever present fear of state-sponsored-intimidation.
Should we just sit back and give up though? No chance. This situation IS changing to the better. Slowly mind you but is changing.
The irony is however is that Osama bin-Laden has served as a catalyst for this change! We despise what this animal has done for our way of life and reputation, but through his heinous acts it has FORCED change!
So we've back to the beginning of your assumption: Should change be imposed?
I think whether we like it or not it IS being and will continue to be imposed by the "west" and by the likes of bin-Laden. It's how we deal with that change and the opportunities presented by these factors is the question, and I don't have the answer for that one yet.
I believe that maybe there should be another way to impose this change, and that is by exploring partnerships and the world powers providing catalysts for change. Maybe a carrot and a stick scenario is one way: fix up your country or we won't trade with you...
But if we both - as peoples - just get frustrated and start throwing accusations and bombs at each other, we won't be fixing up any mess but adding to it.
Let's partner for peace. We KNOW that we have problems, you KNOW that you have problems, so how about calming down and looking at problems through the thoughts of partnership and try to fix them? Wouldn't that be a catalyst for change for the better?
or am I again just being naive?
Posted by: M at August 2, 2004 09:05 AM
M
for your consideration, here is the simple truth as expressed by Ibn Warraq:
There are moderate Muslims. Islam itself is not and can not be moderate.
Right, or it would take to remove to many verses from the Quran, don't you think so?
Posted by: Nikoz at August 2, 2004 10:20 AM
Furthermore,
how do we tell the wheat from the chaff, that is, distingush Ahl al-Jihad from from Ahl as-Salam?
And let me just once more remind you of Islamic taqiyya - concealment for the good of the Din (faith). Hypocrisy unlimited, in other words.
The problem is that NO Muslims can be trusted in this day and age. The stakes are too high.
Posted by: Nikoz at August 2, 2004 10:28 AM
moslems are the first victims of their ideology.
we can't know what percentage of them are 'radical' or 'moderate', so we need to keep our focus on the ideology.
since the ideology is impossible to change due to its historic and "divine" sanction, what moderate moslems say is irrelevant, since their ideology teaches them to lie to non/moslems.
to achieve total freedom from 'allah's' clutch,
i recommend that moslems receive Jesus Christ as their Saviour: this will cure them of their hatred.
yes i have read 'hatred's kingdom'.
its a helpful book, but like many secular observations: it doesn't go far enough for the solution.
islam will not be reformed:
but moslems can leave it if they choose, even if they live in a closed islamic state like arabia.
they can read a bible online and hear the Gospel message thru the power of the internet.
Posted by: forrestshalom at August 2, 2004 10:41 AM
M, do you really think you can divorce "religion" (i.e. an understanding and affirmation of moral truth) from politics? It's been tried -- in the USSR. In Cambodia. In Vietnam. In China. I'm afraid that law must concern itself with issues of right and wrong and therefore must align itself with principles derived from some source in order to stand. Would you want to live in a state where the only thing that prevented people from doing things was the fear of being caught? Here in the United States, we've had a president who thought that way and it messed us up for eight long years. No more.
As for what faith should we derive our precepts from, we know that atheism and Islam both don't work. Let's look at history to see what does work.
Posted by: NoMoreJihad at August 2, 2004 10:44 AM
Exactly. This continuation of appeasement of Islam is a tired joke and is going to cost too many innocent lives in the United States and the West.
Isn't it clear now, after the attacks on the churches in Iraq, that the Islamists will not stop until this becomes a cut and dried religious war for all involved?
Islam is the enemy. Anyone that that wishes to not be on the wrong side in the coming events can make a choice -- get involved in reforms of Islam to make it a true religion of peace that can exist in the modern world, or failing that, leave Islam or convert to one of the world's truly peaceful major religions like Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism or Buddhism.
The truth hurts.
Posted by: Foehammer at August 2, 2004 10:49 AM
Btw, leaving Islam is not a choice for most of the Muslim world because apostates are dealt with brutally more often than not.
Men are typically executed if apostasy is proven, and the women are beaten senseless until they repent and return to Islam or die from their wounds.
I also do not like anyone talking in terms that secularism does not go far enough. Secularism is what makes Christianity tolerable in our modern culture, lest anyone forgets, it was not so long ago that witches were burned at the stake and non-believers were put on torture wheels in Spain.
Don't start damning secularist ideas as being less wise than Christian ones, or you may very well start sounding like the Taliban yourselves.
Think about that.
God gave us brains to use them, not to live with blinders on.
Posted by: Foehammer at August 2, 2004 10:54 AM
M,
You have stated that you are a Republican, although your comments reflect the thinking of a "liberal" Democrat.Possibly you are a closet case liberal.
Basic "facts" about Islam
Islam is a religion of legalistic demands and merciless vengeance.It's "allged" prophet,Mohammed,(an avowed pedophile and child molester),when leading the Muslim armies in their conquests gave the non-believers three choices: 1) profess the faith of Islam,2) pay tribute or 3) die by the sword.
Islam is an ideology of intolorance,hate,subjugation and vindictive violence.
The Qu'an has no moral center,it preaches militant hate and death and destruction to the Infidel.
Islam, over the past 14 centuries has had a long and bloody history and it is not about to reform it's self now.In fact, with the spread of Wahabbism, Islam has only become more violent.
Your sanctimonious and appeasing posture, quite frankly makes me sick.
It is this very thinking that allowed Nazism and Fascism to spread.
The very center of Islam's core is evil.
History has taught us that evil can not be appeased, nor compromised with and never negotiated with.
The only way to deal with evil, is to destroy it!
Posted by: Son of Infidel at August 2, 2004 11:33 AM
Son of Infidel,
I am a 53 year old mother of 3 married to an exMarine; please do no insult me by calling me a closet liberal. But if I were one, that is none of your business.
I fully understand the message regarding infidels in the Qu'an, so spare me your copy and paste skills. Are their muslims that practice Islam to the letter, certainly, and they are the enemy. I submit there are many other muslims that do not and are no different than a Catholic who believes in God but has an abortion. Your failure to accept that fact and call for their destruction along with everyone else is no different than OBL and company. No doubt God would see you burning in hell a long time for that one; you and OBL will have ALOT to talk about. Don't ever take the moral high ground with me, cause you are simply WRONG.
Posted by: M at August 2, 2004 12:10 PM
Resister writes:
"Witness, your comments about living in perpetual fear, Im sorry if you feel this way, but to live in fear is no way to live at all. Until I start seeing ragheads in the street with guns or car bombs-im not gonna fear shit-especially not with Mr. Smith and Mr. Wesson in my belt. "
Witness responds:
Resister, go ahead and light up a smoke while I pour you another drink. Obviously, you are a West Point graduate.
No doubt you have the bad-guys on the run!
Given your strategic and tactical insights, I'm sure we'll have the troops "home by Christmas." With generals like you on our side, we in the west can sleep better tonight -- nuke suticases or not.
Pligram writes:
"The word "Allah" is just the Arabic word for "God." In the Arabic & English Bibles I obtained from the International Bible Society at the opening of the Gospel according to John, for example, the Arabic text uses "Allah."
Witness response
Pilgram, yours is the more liberal interpretation that I have been privy to over the years. A more conservative definition holds that the title "God" is attributed to a specific deity with unique attributes and who claims exclusive title to the term "God."
As such, the dieties "Allah" and "Yahweh" are separate and distinct persona who lay compeating claim to the tile "God."
Son of Infidel wrties:
Below are some breif facts about the Crusades.
The first Crusade began in 1096 and they lasted approximately 250 years.During this time there were many atocties, torturing,pillaging and massacring of civilians all in the name of Christ. Many of these victims were Byzantine Christians as well as Jews that were slaugthered.
This rage continued across Europe to Constantinople where in 1204 the city was pillaged and looted of most of its great treasures.
Unfortunately your reference to the Crusades was a poor choice as this was a dark period for the world and a stain on Christianity."
Witness responds:
The atrocities that you attribute to Christianity are sidebars in every conflagration. There are always innocents that forefit life and limb in the ugly business we call "war."
My allusion was to the over-arching response by the Christian West to the common threat posed by Islamists who started the invasions in the first place. The unity of purpose was a consideration for both sides during the period -- to wit: "destroy them." Granted there must have been nuasances as there always will be in these matters, but the commonality of purpose is an intriging feature of the crusade period.
In this context, my observation is that today the commonality of purpose on the part of the west is lacking. This to our detriment.
But with Resister leading the charge, I'm sure we're in good hands -- no?
To M:
I feel your pain to coin a phrase. You are not in a position that I envy and suggest that you need to make some very difficult choices. No doubt that you realize that already.
So than, what to do? God knows.
Posted by: witness at August 2, 2004 12:12 PM
M,
To compare the Islamo-terrorist-scum to people that recognize the real threat that they pose and understand what is necassry to deal with this threat, is idiotic and ignorant.
Futhermore, I am not impressed that you are married to an ex marine and to say that I will burn in hell is an over emotional reaction on your part.
If we follow your advice we will either all be dead or bowing to Mecca.
PS: I do not "copy and paste" I use my brain, a part of your body in need of great improvement.
PSS:I still say that you are a closet case "liberal"
Posted by: Son of Infidel at August 2, 2004 12:37 PM
From the Voice of America:
Iraqi Church Bombings Seen as Attempt to Split Religious Groups
Several of Iraq's top religious leaders have denounced Sunday's deadly bombings of five Christian churches in Baghdad and the northern city of Mosul. Iraqi government officials say those who attacked the churches were trying to drive a wedge between Christians and Muslims...
follow the link for more...
http://www.voanews.com/article.cfm?objectID=1DBE848E-D990-4A28-872081B3F11FF9E5
Posted by: al-Canine at August 2, 2004 12:41 PM
Here, from a former advisor to the US Department of State, is the truth about the church bombings.
Allahu akbar
Posted by: Reza at August 2, 2004 12:44 PM
witness,
Your interpertation of the Crusades is in error, and purely self serving.
Do some "research" and you will know the "truth".
"Like it or not, we are going to have to learn to live in perpetual fear like the Israelis"
Based on your above statement, I suggest that you get some tranquilizers to take while you are cowaring in the corner.
Posted by: Son of Infidel at August 2, 2004 12:57 PM
With regard to crusading
I'm writing my degree on the First Crusade, specifically the relationship of the Franks and Eastern Christians.
Witness is totally right about the common purpose notion. Son of Infidel gets it all wrong. I'll presume to explain.
The crusading ideal and the real backbone of the First Crusade was a war of liberation.
Those who took the cross after pope Urban II's mighty sermon at Clermont went off to set free the Holy City from the Muslim yoke. Along with that, the pope urged the Franks to help break the chains of fellow Christians in the East, whose lands had been laid waste by the infidels.
And verily, this spirit of unity and belief in God's support was to result in the Crusade's overwhelming success.
It is also noteworthy that the vast majority of the indigenous Christians proved supportive and helpful, take for example the Armenians of Edessa or the Maronites of Lebanon.
The eventual fall of the crusader states stemmed from the inability to cooperate with Byzantium and the mutual hostility initially triggered by Bohemond of Otranto, that's true.
For more information see the faximile of M. W. Baldwin's excellent account.
http://libtext.library.wisc.edu/HistCrusades/
Posted by: Nikoz at August 2, 2004 12:57 PM
Nikoz,
Please enlighten me, were there any Jews or Christians killed by the Crusaders, because if you had read my previous comments that is the point I was making.
"Needless to say, Peter's Quest was doomed. They behaved poorly along the route, thieving food and ransacking homes for supplies. The worst was the persecution of the Jews before even leaving Europe".
"The Jewish peoples had lived in relative quiet amongst the Christians up to this point. Though not accepted in the Communities, they were tolerated and business was conducted in a relatively civilized manor".
"The Jewish peoples had their own communities and though they were looked down upon, they were not opposed till now. Peter's army lacked funds. It was suggested that if the Crusaders could kill the enemies of God abroad, then what's to stop them at home. Let it be noted that the Church did not condone this. Bishops locally preached against this, and some were attacked for their preaching. The Bishop of Spier saved many lives, but at Warms the Bishop was driven from his home and the Jews he sheltered were slaughtered. Same thing at the town of Mainz. The Bishops could not stop Peter's army. They continued their rage across Europe to Constantinople".
"Arriving there, Alexis didn't know what to make of them. Not wanting them to stay to cause further trouble in his city, he made arrangements to have them shipped over the Bosphorus river to Anatolia. Five days after they arrived, in July 1096, they were moved to Turkey. Most never saw the Grand city of Constantinople much to Alexis' relief".
"Once in Anatolia, Peter's followers felt it was time to start Crusading in earnest, torturing, pillaging and massacring indiscriminately. However, as it turned out, most of their victims were Byzantine Christians who lived in and around Nicaea".
Posted by: Son of Infidel at August 2, 2004 01:19 PM
Witness,
Thanks for the concern, but I have been visiting JW for a very long time and understand the intolerance of some of the thought police here. My mother always taught me to do the right thing even if it hurts, and I am way too old to be told what I should believe.
While I might dream of mining the borders (I really mean that), stopping all immigration, deport all foreigners, and stop trading with the world and put Americans back to work being selfsufficient, that is never going to happen. Neither is nuking Mecca or destroying Islam. What we are going to kill billions of muslims now (good with the bad)because they practice some form of Islam? Don't think so. So others can rant on and make themselves feel pretty important by accomplish nothing. I would no sooner buy into that crap than I would with what OBL is selling. Wrong is wrong, pure and simple. We all have choices, and we can be part of the problem or part of the solution.
Posted by: M at August 2, 2004 01:39 PM
Nikoz,
Here is more "factual" information about the Crusades.
Good luck with your writing.
"The Seljuk Turks gained control of Jerusalem in 1071. Seljuk rule of Palestine lasted less than 30 years. In 1098, the Fatimids, based in Egypt, took advantage of the Seljuk struggles with the Christian crusaders from Europe. They allied themselves with the Crusaders and capt
Posted by: witness [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 3:36 PM
witness,
you repost another long pointless reposting like that that adds nothing to the coversation, and I'll do what I can to have you banned.
There is NO EXCUSE for abusing the board like that.
Posted by: Bob Owens [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 3:44 PM
Remember this much, all you apologists: The Crusades were a REACTION to centuries of Muslim aggression.
That's the part Islam never talks about.
And it wasn't too many centuries after the last Crusade that the Muslims went right back to their bombarding of Constantinople and invading Italy, Spain and the Balkans.
Muslims are the most masterful liars in history, but written record is written record and even the most ornate mosque can not hide every stone of a temple or church beneath it.
Posted by: Foehammer [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 3:54 PM
witness,
Have you nothing better to do with your time.
Your behavior is childish and disruptive.
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 4:02 PM
Perhaps you should check with the board folks,
seems we have two uid's using the name "witness"
I keep my posts to a minimum, for example:
"Here is more "factual" information about the Crusades.
Good luck with your writing.
"The Seljuk Turks gained control of Jerusalem in 1071. Seljuk rule of Palestine lasted less than 30 years. In 1098, the Fatimids, based in Egypt, took advantage of the Seljuk struggles with the Christian crusaders from Europe. They allied themselves with the Crusaders and capt
Posted by: witness at August 2, 2004 03:36 PM "
IS NOT MINE.
Posted by: witness [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 4:05 PM
Foehammer,
I am in agreement with you,however that does not excuse the atocities purportrated by the Crusaders aganist the Jews and other innocent non-muslims.
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 4:08 PM
Son of Infidel:
About the cowerdice stuff...I DID read you correctly the FIRST time. Your lucky the bar invitation was ever open to the likes of you.
You're a charming fellow and I appreciate your compliments and all -- but your rantings on this board make the rest of us look pretty silly.
Bob O.
Unless you are the owner of this board...well sir, you best stand-by sir... you best stand-by.
Posted by: witness [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 4:14 PM
There are always attrocities in war. The real evil manifests itself during times of relative PEACE.
Look around us -- who is intentionally raping and killing civilians in the world year in and year out?
There is no moral equivalency between ancient Crusades and the modern barbarism of Islamic Jihadists.
This gets back to the way I was raised -- don't start the fight, finish it.
It's really that simple.
Posted by: Foehammer [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 4:17 PM
witness,
I do not post rantings.
I post clear, succint, factual statements.
Finally, it is you who are doing the ranting, your posts are rife with them,evidently because, to quote you:
"Like it or not, we are going to have to learn to live in perpetual fear like the Israelis"
Stop living in perpetual fear and you will be a more relaxed person and you will not feel the need to take out your anxieties by repeatedly and deliberatelly placing these extremely long posts.
Sincerly,
Son of Infidel
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 4:38 PM
Wow, it's the longest thread I've seen at JW.
Son of Infidel,
Foehammer's just indicated what I was getting at. War has an ugly face. But nothing conceivably uglier than Islamic Jihad.
I hope you're with me on that.
Posted by: Nikoz [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 4:39 PM
witness, I assume by your comment that since you cannot apparently win an argument based upon the quality of your argument, you intend to do so based upon volume?
How very "Democratic Underground" of you.
Posted by: Bob Owens [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 4:46 PM
Nikoz,
I'm with you!
About the longest thread, it seems that witness an anxiety attack.
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 5:00 PM
Typo: witness "had" an anxiety attack.
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 5:02 PM
What makes you think he's a Democrat supporter?
Posted by: Nikoz [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 5:27 PM
Here's something really sad,while Muslim leaders are quick to scream Islamophobia and racism when Mosques are vandalized by pranksters on summer break from school,the Canadian media was so afraid of offending Muslims the reports
from Iraq stated the bombs went off near several buildings by unknown assailants.
This occured around evening services by worshippers in some of the buildings.
What a load of crap, Christians were Murdered by Muslims that used prater services to assure the Churches were busy. Just try bombing a Mosques
at anytime of the day,the Jihadist would be out in full force around the world ready to destroy
everything and everybody.
I've really tried to be fair to Islam and read the Quran and listen to Imam's and Muslims,but the hate and violence is to overt to be written off as a fringe group. The Quran promotes murder and Muhammed was a pedophile and misogenist,what's worse is that Muslims leaders try to promote Islam as slaughtering less people than other faiths.
Wow,now that's a real selling feature.
Posted by: ala-sux [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 3, 2004 12:12 AM
I was on the BBC website and below is the typical response from Muslims in the denial stage and paranoia mode. The "Have your say" question was on the Church bombings and a few posts were
much like this one.
Iraq before the war no longer had weapons of mass destruction nor what is branded as "international terrorism". Now that the war is over, Iraq still has no weapons of mass destruction but has, on the other hand, loads of mass explosions. Mr Bush and Mr Blair's "crusade" has eliminated a visible big monster and replaced him with numerous smaller invisible ones. The Iraqi Christians, never a target before, shall now live the fear that is felt by their 25 million Iraqi co-citizens. Thank you Mr Bush and Mr Blair for making the Middle East a safer place, for extremists to flourish, that is.
Nabil A Sasso, Dakar, Senegal
What compassion from these peaceful tolerant bunch,screw Sudan,let Allah sort out the infidels
and lets start have the Quran ruled hate-literature and see the Muslims prove it to be wrong.
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