But of course, this conflict has nothing to do with religion. From the BBC, with thanks to Susan:
The first two blasts happened near churches in the busy Karada shopping area of Baghdad, sending a plume of smoke across the neighbourhood.
At least two people are reported to have been killed in what appears to be a new tactic by insurgents.
A third blast was reported a short time later in Mosul, where a police station had been bombed earlier in the day.
Witnesses said a car bomb detonated outside an Armenian church as an evening service was getting under way.
Shattered glass
It blew out stained glass windows, and scattered pieces of hot metal across the street. The wreckage of at least three burned out cars was left in its wake.
"I saw injured women and children and men, the church's glass shattered everywhere. There's glass all over the floor," Juliette Agob, who was inside the church at the time, was quoted by the Associated Press as saying.
Ten minutes later, as the emergency services raced to the scene, a second blast went off outside a Syrian Catholic church some 400 metres from the first church.
An ambulance driver said two people had been killed.
At around the same time, a suspected car bomb went off outside a church in Mosul.
Posted by Robert at August 1, 2004 12:56 PM
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Comments
(Note: Comments on articles are unmoderated, and do not necessarily reflect the views of Jihad Watch or Robert Spencer. Comments that are off-topic, offensive, slanderous, or otherwise annoying may be summarily deleted. However, the fact that particular comments remain on the site IN NO WAY constitutes an endorsement by Robert Spencer of the views expressed therein.)
I am an Iraqi christian, and i swear, i wish the USA would airlift every single Iraqi christian, and drop them on Dearnborn michigan. I wish more "christians" in the west would speak out about what happens to us.
Ps. Christians are harmless, thats why sadam used use to cook his food.
Posted by: islamwatcher [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 1:14 PM
Does anyone know the name or other specific information about any of the three churches mentioned in the news item?
Pilgrim
Posted by: Pilgrim [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 1:14 PM
Hey Catholics:
Reza's calling you "muslims" over on the Dhimmi Watch July 31 "Tariq Ramadan . . . " thread.
Posted by: CGW [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 1:21 PM
OT:
Great article by a CANADIAN, a must-read.
GOD BLESS AMERICA
Posted by: CGW [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 1:31 PM
Hey folks:
MEMRI reports as follows regarding the Saudi terror suspect who turned himself in under the Amnesty:
http://www.memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD75404
A few weeks after Al-Omari was turned in, the Saudi newspapers reported that the Saudi authorities had paid off Al-Omari's debts. According to Al-Watan, Othman Al-Omari's mother expressed her "gratitude and appreciation of Prince Muhammad Bin Naif for his noble initiative to pay off the debts of her son, who recently turned himself in to the Saudi authorities." The mother recounted that "Prince Muhammad Bin Naif contributed the entire sum, totaling 170,000 SR [$45,300], as well as a grant of 30,000 SR [$8,000] to Al-Omari's family. In addition, a monthly stipend of 3,000 SR [$800] will be paid to Othman Al-Omari's children, as well as a salary of 2,000 SR [$530] to Othman Al-Omari himself." [3]
And more recently, they have posted that the Saudi Gazette has a message of thanks from Al-Omari's mother in it. The Saudi Gazette is and English language propaganda arm of the Saudis. So, of course, your humble researcher attempted to find out if what MEMRI had posted was true. And, it must be true, because the Gazette has blocked access to every issue of the Gazette for the whole month of July.
Posted by: Mentat [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 1:36 PM
In 1933, five months after the British left, and having promised not to harm minorities, Muslims in Iraq attacked and murdered tens of thousands of helpless Assyrian Christians. Some say the figure was "only" 70,000. William Saroyan, of Armenian ancestry, wrote about the massacres; he called his book "70,000 Assyrians." Perhaps it is time to reprint it, along with all the eyewitness testimonies of Armenian survivors of the attacks, not based on ethnicity but rather on hatred of the "giavour" or Infidel (or "Christiand dog") which in 1894-95 and to much more murderous effect, in 1915 and the years following, by Turks, and Kurds, and even by the Arabs of the Syrian Desert who would pick off Armenian women and girls as they made their way to the relative safety of Christian communities in such places as Haleb (Aleppo) and Beirut.
The attacks on Christian churches, and on Chistians in Iraq, is simply one more chapter in the long history, recorded by Bat Ye'or in "The Decline of Eastern Christianity Under Islam," a book that should be read by policymakers, and by all those who take an interest in what Islam holds in store for Infidels.
And, of course,one need only look at the slow asphyxiation of the Copts in Egypt, of the once-thriving Christian civilization of North Africa (home of both Tertullian and St. Augustine), of formerly-Christian Byzantium with its vast riches and advanced civilization, of Christians today anywhere that Muslims predominate -- in Pakisan and the Sudan and Indonesia -- or even where they form a minority sufficiently strong to feel it can go on the attack (as in the Philippines, and in Bosnia and Kosovo).
How much evidence, from the texts of Islam, and from the behavior of Muslims through time and space, does one need? What further evidence does one require?
Posted by: Hugh [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 2:06 PM
islamwatcher,
You said, "I wish more 'christians' in the west would speak out about what happens to us."
Where would I obtain information about what is happening to you? I can read Arabic poorly, French better, and English best. I can speak Arabic somewhat better than I read it.
To whom should I speak out?
If you wish to contact me directly, use mt1016b-tango@yahoo.com
Pilgrim
Posted by: Pilgrim [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 2:10 PM
This was mentioned in passing on a local chicago news talk show, just before the cut to something more important -- sports!
It is sad because the priorities of the American media are incomprehensible to me.
Now if this were a mosque, well now, that would be a hate crime and the media would go nuts!
Posted by: witness [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 2:26 PM
Wait a minute, according to that NYT beacon of secular platitudes, Nicholas Kristof, believing Christians are equally, a danger to civilization as we in the West know it, as believing Muslims are.
So what if the Koran sounds more like Mein Kempf than the Bible, so what if the word "Islam" literally translates into "submission", peace thru conquest. So what if the more violent passages of the Koran abrogate the earlier tolerant passages. So what if even moderate Muslims living the US talk on their blogs about the coming Islamic caliphate, and a Muslim in the white house.
We need to turn the discussion to True & False. Was the emperor of Japan, God? NO. Because the Japanese sincerely believed he was, did that make it so? NO. Does Allah, who needs the constant killing off of unbelievers, sound like he loves the little children? I don't think so. Instead he encourages his Islamic followers to raise their own children to become living bombs. Too, its their only assurance of Salvation with a lust-filled heaven in return. Does Allah sound anything like God to you?
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. -1 John 4:1
Posted by: daughter of patriots [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 2:31 PM
To Islamwatcher:
I am catholic too, spanish, but catholic, am very sad for what was happening, can you explain to us, if the situation for christians is better than before, and I would like to say that christians iraquis dont´have to leave Iraq, I dont´want a islamic republic, the christians in Iraq and like other countries are very culte and without them the arabic countries and non-arabic muslims countries would be in the Stone Age.
Greetings and my prayings for this christian and catholic people murdered in the name of Islam.
Posted by: Franze [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 2:52 PM
islamwatcher and pilgrim,
The Voice of the Martyrs is a non-profit, interdenominational organization with
a vision for aiding Christians around the world who are being persecuted for their beliefs.
VOM was founded by the Reverand Richard Wurmbrand, who spent 14 years in Romanian prisons.He wrote a book called Tortured for Christ as well as others.
Below is the link to their website.I hope this will be of help.
http://www.persecution.com/
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 3:05 PM
Pilgrim, thankyou for the solidarity, God bless all of you. Among iraqis the news travels fast, and through our media locals.
For western people, you need to read between the lines, as sad as it seems, they will cover it breifly. The best thing is to write to your congress and politicians, and ask them to forward the immigration process of the middle east christians. Remeber, muslims would arent refugues when they leave their islamic utopias.
Thankyou everyone, please keep us in prayer.
Posted by: islamwatcher [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 3:07 PM
Islamwatcher,
I am an American Christian and have already been praying for Iraqi Christians and am part of the Voice of the Martyr supporters. My first thought when I heard about the church blasts was that we should send planes to pick up all the Iraqi Christians and resettle them in the United States. If our FBI needs translators, why not the Iraqi Christians. Please keep posting here so we know how things are going. I will be contacting my govt officials about the plight of Iraqi Christians tomorrow. Be strong and courageous. Remember what Peter wrote about:
12Dear friends, do not be surprised at the painful trial you are suffering, as though something strange were happening to you. 13But rejoice that you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when His glory is revealed.
Jesus has already overcome the world and is with you as you go through the fire. I would prefer that all Christians in Muslim countries would come here to the U.S. if that were possible...because the judgement of the Islamic nations is at hand; Muslims are not fighting us, they are fighting Jesus since Christ lives in us. Their time is short. Remember Psalm 2 and Psalm 37. Don't be discouraged, we will see the day when every Muslim knee will bend to Jesus and every Muslim will confess that He is Lord not their false deity...we will even see the false prophet of Islam and OBL bowing to Jesus before Jesus removes them from us forever.
Remembering you in prayer and asking for your protection and deliverance!
Posted by: Abby [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 3:36 PM
this would be a great opportunity for 'brother' bush
our 'christian' president to demonstrate his faith:
evacuate all professing christians out of iraq and bring them to the usa.
(but i won't hold my breath on it)
by the way i came across an excellent article by
hugh fitzgerald entitled
'islam for the perplexed'
http://mailman.io.com/pipermail/freemanlist/2004-July/002457.html
Posted by: forrestshalom [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 4:04 PM
The sad thing is that tomorrow, the entire arab media will be describing these bombings as the work of Zionists/Mossad/Jews/Coalition Forces. A new conspiracy will be afoot.
I agree with everyone: Let's get the Christians out now!
Posted by: 3812Michelle [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 4:16 PM
Later reports say that six churches, not three, were attacked.
Pilgrim
Posted by: Pilgrim [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 4:18 PM
Forrestshalom,
If the President of the United States was a Jew, what actions would he take to help other Jews out side of the US.
I am geting a bit tired of your biased anti-Christian/Bush Rhetoric.
Futhermore, the Bush Administration has been very supportive of "Israel", more so than previous Administrations, MR. "Shalom"
You seem to have some type of issue with Christianty.
"lets face the TRUTH".
"the west: led by 'christian' america is in an alliance with the muslims".
"the war against 'terrorism' is only a ploy".
Posted by: forrestshalom at July 30, 2004 11:46 AM
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 5:22 PM
I am in canada, and i am going to be writing to my politicians to forward some of these people in. Let me tell you this, muslims, like the leeches they are, do pose as christians when they want to get to western countries, and many western immigration officials do ask them to recite certain prayers (this has happened to much of my family)
I press my american brothers and sisters to do the same, or any westerners for that matter.
I can remember seeing pics and reading about how Israel airlifted the remaining jews in iraq to safety, i wish the U.S. could do this.
God bless the U.S.A.
Posted by: islamwatcher [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 5:23 PM
islamwatcher,
Here is the US "all" politicians play the game of "politics" and as such it is unlikely and "unfortunate" that any action will be taken to airlift Christians out of Iraq or any other place in the world.
At this time George Bush is the best option we have.Until there is a better one, I shall support him.
The Voice of the Martyrs is a good organization.I recommend that you contact them.
May the grace and peace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you evermore.
Son of Infidel
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 6:18 PM
the war against islam will not be won by killing
a few or alot of muslims here and there.
it will be won once the ideology/religion is identified and dispatched. something that bush can't
see.
i don't think that this war will ulimately be won by humans, as it is diaobolical(satanic:hence spiritual
in nature).
a jewish american president? good idea. hopefully he would help his fellow jews in trouble like sharon
and israel does.
church going clinton and now bush has not lifted a finger to help any professing christian in muslim lands.
a HUGE difference! :)
Posted by: forrestshalom [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 6:25 PM
Just look at the climate of fear these barbarians have thrust our way of life into: "Hercules" police on library steps in NYC armed like soldiers.
Should we accept this or should we fight?
It is time to hold Islam to account for perpetuating this climate of hate.
Are you reading this, Saudi Arabia?
Are you reading this, mullahs in Iran?
Are you reading this, Syrian jihadists?
Are you reading this, Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt?
Welcome to the New Crusade.
America once had a climate where no Communist was welcome. Let us now allow no Muslim here that condones "Jihad." Reform or be expelled. That's the only wisdom I can see for dealing with Islam in the United States.
Al Qaeda -- attack us if you will, but be forwarned now -- the climate in the United States is like the foundering of your twisted cult on the razors edge and whichever way you push us it will cut badly for you.
Posted by: Foehammer [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 6:36 PM
I remember being very excited when I discovered VOM. Their materials are very professional and it seemed they had some good projects and actions going.
Over the year or so that I received their materials I formed an impression that I am posting here in order that it may be corrected if it is wrong. My impression was that VOM concentrated almost exclusively on Protestant Christians, especially Evangelicals. The item I remember -- but this is only my memory, and may well be selective or fallible! -- was an item on some persecutions on Cyprus, and Orthodox Christians weren't mentioned at all (either as having been persecuted or even as part of the scenery). FYI, I am Orthodox Christian.
Nonetheless, VOM is the first place I would try to get to notice what is happening to Christians in Iraq. And for all I know they've already done articles on it. :-)
Pilgrim
Posted by: Pilgrim [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 6:37 PM
Here is a possible resource but I know nothing about them so please don't flame me, just enlighten me.
Middle East Council of Churches
http://www.mecchurches.org/
Pilgrim
Posted by: Pilgrim [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 6:42 PM
an iraq (babylon) empty of jews?
i think this is highly significant prophetically.
during the great tribulation the jews are warned to flee mystery babylon.
obviously jews aren't returning to literal babylon/iraq soon.
my leading (in fact only) candidate for the accursed
"mystery babylon" is america.
america is the largest outpost of diaspora jews in the world: about 6 million.
God warns them to 'come out of her (mystery babylon)
before the final blows of judgement fall.
personally i think it is an islamic nuclear attack...
Posted by: forrestshalom [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 6:44 PM
And here is the only list of Baghdad Christian churches I've been able to find. I don't know how old it is. It may help identify the churches attacked today.
http://www.chaldeansonline.net/church/christian.html
Pilgrim
Posted by: Pilgrim [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 6:45 PM
as for the usa or bush being 'friends' with israel:
I DOUBT IT! this would be a funny statement if it were not so tragic and full of dire consequences.
how can the usa be the FRIENDS of both saudi arabia and israel?
the west led by the usa has armed the muslim world
and they in turn are using them on us.
another analogy from the book of daniel chapter 2:
iron/clay
iron:western arms and technology
clay:muslim oil
hint: "a'rav"
Posted by: forrestshalom [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 6:58 PM
Iraqi Christians of whatever denomination,come and join your brothers and sisters in the West.
We will welcome you with open arms. Apply as a persecuted minority for residence in New Zealand.
Posted by: Morgane [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 7:00 PM
Forrestshalom,
Israel is a "Jewish State" and was created for the preservation and continuance of the Jewish people.
Ezekiel 11:17
17 Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.
The United States is a nation of many faiths.
If President Bush were to bring persecuted Christians from other parts of the world to this country, or for that matter if any other President were to do this, they would be obligated to do the same for people of other faiths.
As such your previous comments are in error.
However I do agree with you concerning the diabolical "evil" of Islam.
The prophesy of the Book of Revelation will be fulfilled.
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 7:01 PM
clarification:
as for the usa or bush being 'friends' with israel:
I DOUBT IT! this would be a funny statement if it were not so tragic and full of dire consequences.
-------------
i meant to say 'tragically false' in the above statement.
Posted by: forrestshalom [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 7:02 PM
There is an inherentl differerence between Middle eastern Muslims and Middle Eastern Christians who liv ein the West.
And everywhere the story is the same.....Its the Muslims who cause the most trouble, show no respect,and are involved in subversive activities.....
The case ir closed.....and so are the socialists eyes it seems.
Posted by: Joe Bananas [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 7:08 PM
mystery babylon has many faiths alright.
and the king of false gospels: islam has arrived
to punish.
don't get uptite,
this is my opinion and i could be wrong.
i often wish i was wrong: i don't want my children
to live in a jew-less islamically enlightened country.
Posted by: forrestshalom [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 7:09 PM
Here's a link to a Canadian Islamic site that feels the media should be censored from printing the truth about the Saudis funding Wahabbism in Canada.
http://www.canadianislamiccongress.org/mc/media_communique.php?mcdate=2004-07-31
**************************************************
You'll get a laugh out of their "Islamophobe of the year" section,even though an ex-member from
the C.I.C. that now runs the www.muslimcanadiancongress.org has stated in public that Saudis fund seminars and speakers to push Wahabbism in Canada,the C.I.C. leader,Mohamed Elmasry insists the claims are really Islomophobia. Elmasry was on a Canadian show and mocked a Muslims female for not wearing an Hijab,she was a sinner to be judged by Allah in the day of Judgement.
Canadian Muslims have been on the CBC and proudly boasted that the USA derserved the 9/11 attack which include 25 dead Canadians.A local Mosque in Toronto now raises money for a Al-Qaeda family in Canada that praised Osama and suicide murderers.They want us dead and any excuse to blame Jews to justify slaughtering non-Muslims is now the standard procedure for Jihad.
Posted by: ala-sux [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 7:09 PM
Forrestshalom,
I agree with you concerning the arming of Arab/Muslims States by the US and I am totally against this.
Tell me what other Counrty gives the amount of miltary and economic support that the US does to the State of Israel.
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 7:12 PM
Typo: what other "country" gives
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 7:17 PM
to quote the emminent israeli scholar
yohanan ramati:
'there will be a palestinian state if the usa wants
one'.
he said further: israel is in no position to be isolated further in the world. clearly meaning that
tiny israel will do what big 'caesar' insists on.
yes it is a good thing that america currently gives israel financial support. besides being currently a safe haven for jews, it is the only thing that prevents the judgement aspect of the abrahamic covenant (gen 12.3) from kicking in.
america is playing a dangerous and deadly game in
trying to be friends with both sides.
i think therefore that the anti-christ comes out of america to negotiate a 7 year peace agreement with israel and the muslims.
america is the only 'respected' power broker for both sides.
does anyone else see this?
Posted by: forrestshalom [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 7:23 PM
Forestshalom,
It troubles me to see any Jew calling into question the alliance of the United States to Israel.
Go find a copy of "Friends in Deed" by Dan Raviv and Yossi Melman and end your ignorant ranting.
The United States has stood by Israel when all else in the world would have tossed you to the wolves decades ago. Do not start this revisionist dialogue here and especially not now. We have our own problems to deal with in the United States now, and it is due in no small way to our support of Israel amongst other things.
Posted by: Foehammer [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 7:38 PM
i'm gentile not jewish.
but the problem that can't be whisked away is:
the usa is in bed with the devil in saudi arabia.
this has been in developement for over 100 years.
now the devil wants his pound of flesh.
Posted by: forrestshalom [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 7:44 PM
Forrestshalom,
The current Administration, I hope is well aware of the dangers of a Palestinian State.
If the "politically correct" liberal Democrats ever get into the White House the possibilty of a Palesttinian State would be more likely.
The anti-Christ is already in the world and he shall rise from the continent of Europe.
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 7:44 PM
oh really? what's his name?
Posted by: forrestshalom [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 7:48 PM
Forrestshalom,
Gentile? Oh, well, whatever denomination you are, the same statements I made earlier apply. You once again are talking in distortions:
"the usa is in bed with the devil in saudi arabia.
this has been in developement for over 100 years."
Saudi Arabia was established in 1932.
You do the math.
Regardless, not all Saudi Arabians are our enemies, regardless of the nature of Islam. We need to deal with them firmly and harshly if necessary, but to act as if they harbor some great evil is insanity. The great evil that faces us is the continuation of the lies that push us toward some self-fulfilling prophecy from any side of the fence.
If any prophecy must be fulfilled, let it be one of the dignity of mankind and not fruitless destruction at the hands of zealots on all sides.
Posted by: Foehammer [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 7:53 PM
Forrestshalom,
This will be revealed in the future.
I am perfectly sane and quite serious about my statement.
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 7:53 PM
But to be more on the subject......I think that soon people are going to start to have a gutfull of all this.
9/11 has only emboldened these people to think that they will soon take over, their arrogance and irrational logic, along with their maifesto(Quran) is just bringing this out in the open.
The only people playing their game are the fools who think that all this is is just wishfull thinking amongst a few "zealouts".
Just out of curiosity though how do you know that the Anti-Christ is allready in Europe? I dont seem to have any scriptures to prove this?
Posted by: Joe Bananas [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 7:57 PM
definition clarification:
jew: anyone physically descended from ya'acov(jacob).
gentile: anyone else.
christian: a jew or gentile who has personally received Yeshua Ha'Machiach as his messiah and savior by calling upon Him to save him: believing in his hear that he died for their sins and rose again.
israel: the jewish people: whether in the promised land or not. can also mean the physical land that God promised the jews.
church: comprised of those defined as christian above.
christendom: probably the best term used to describe
anyone or anyTHING calling itself "christian". but not fulfilling the biblical definition.
questions?
Posted by: forrestshalom [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 7:59 PM
Forrestshalom......Forgive me but I dont understand what this has to do with Muslims wanting to Kill everyone or subduing them and impose Sharia law on the Earth.
As far as I'm concerned Muslims just want all Jews dead (along with everyone it seems, including and occasionaly some of their own)
Ahhhh what a peacefull religion...
Posted by: Joe Bananas [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 8:02 PM
Ok, now this thread is going in the wrong direction.
Posted by: Foehammer [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 8:03 PM
Foehammer,
I would be interested to know what course of action do you think would be appropriate in dealing with the Islamic Countries, such as Saudi Arabia, Iran and Syria?
"We need to deal with them firmly and harshly if necessary, but to act as if they harbor some great evil is insanity. The great evil that faces us is the"
Whether you believe this or not, there is a Satanic fury behind the "evil" of Islam.
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 8:08 PM
yes i am a gentile according to the biblical given above, but i have a jewish saviour Jesus or
'Yeshua' in hebrew.
americans first made contact with arabia in the late
20th century. they were american missionaries from the reformed church in america. they gained the trust of the arabians: (yes i know saud came later).
this laid the foundation of trust enabling americans to beat the europeans to the oil concession.
i have fascinating info to share on this
strange alliance in the future,and i am trying to find more information on the early formative years.
still this is decidedly not good at all according to the jewish bible: old and new covenants (all written by jews).
Posted by: forrestshalom [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 8:09 PM
islam is satanic to the core:
and the problem goes back to isaac/ishmael.
ultimately satan is in opposition to the Creator God: the God of Israel and His Son Jesus Christ.
the lord is allowing satan to manuever the nations including unbelieving national israel for the grand
finale.
i hope everyone chooses to be on the 'RIGHT' side, and the winning side by the way.
best regards to all: time for my bike ride
shalom
Posted by: forrestshalom [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 8:15 PM
Joe,
I can't go into anymore detail about this now and I am not trying to avoid your question.
Just keep your eye on the events taking place in Europe.
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 8:15 PM
Son of Infidel:
I've discussed this before, but it comes down to this -- before this conflict is over, I am convinced that Islamic nations worldwide and the Muslims here in the United States will all have to answer a call from the West:
Reform Islam and unconditionally cease all terrorist support, or face world war. Islam must answer or this evil will just cycle back and forth for all time until Islam finally attains its ultimate goal of religious dominance at the cost of modernity, humanity and the future.
This event will most likely manifest only after the United States and/or other predominantly Western/Judao-Christian nations suffer catastrophic terrorist acts that finally shake the rest us out of our Utopian-liberal delirium.
The current atmosphere is just the quiet before the storm, in my opinion. It is just a damn shame that it always takes tragedy to awaken Americans.
Posted by: Foehammer [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 8:21 PM
The current atmosphere is just the quiet before the storm, in my opinion. It is just a damn shame that it always takes tragedy to awaken Americans.
Amen to that...
There is one big whopping earth changing event just lurking around the corner.....waiting to happen.
Posted by: Joe Bananas [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 8:40 PM
I appreciate your reply, although unfortunately you are mistaken.
The Islamic countries and Muslims that you speak of will never reform what they believe to be the "truth" about their vile and "evil" ideology.
This belief they have is in their blood,their soul and their very existence.
The threat of force will not deter them from their present course and as you have seen they are more than willing to die for "Allah".
Well planned,clear and decisive military action aganist the countries that harbor, support and finance the Islamo-fascists is what is needed,vailed threats will accomplish nothing.
This current battle is unlike any that the world has faced before.Ultimately this will become the final conflict.
I am afraid that because of man's inability to learn from the past, he will pay a great price in the future.
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 8:55 PM
islamwatcher said, “am an Iraqi christian, and i swear, i wish the USA would airlift every single Iraqi christian, and drop them on Dearnborn michigan. I wish more "christians" in the west would speak out about what happens to us.”
islamwatcher, I hope all is well with your friends and family in Iraq.
Posted by: Sheik Canuck (swt) [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 10:06 PM
islamwatcher,
Can you or someone else point me at any web sites in Baghdad (maybe a newspaper or something?) that would give details on the churches attacked and so forth? Arabic is fine.
Pilgrim
Posted by: Pilgrim [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 10:41 PM
Pilgrim,
Try these; most current news is in the comment sections usually days before we get it. Local news organizations listed on side of blogs like Iraqinet may have more info.
http://messopotamian.blogspot.com/
http://iraqthemodel.blogspot.com/
http://hammorabi.blogspot.com/
Posted by: M [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 10:59 PM
The few comments that I have read here leaves me the the distraught impression that we are terrorized to some degree already.
While we debate the issues and agree on nothing, the barbarians are already in the gate and are employed in key position in places like the FBI.
Short of suitcase nukes going off or something, my sense suggests that the good old Norman Rockwell days in American are gone.
Like it or not, we are going to have to learn to live in perpetual fear like the Isrealies. But give credit to the other side for at least being united in a common cause which unfortunately is to destroy us.
Solutions? Short term, rescue the Christians and Jews in the Islamic countries and stop bikering over small stuff. Then, learn a lesson or two from the crusaders of the middle ages -- at least they put a stop to the Islamic nonesense for a couple of centuries.
Long term, it's in God's hands - not allah's.
Posted by: witness [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 11:18 PM
here's a site i found:
http://assyrianchristians.com/
Posted by: forrestshalom [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2004 11:22 PM
Forrestshalom,
You might be interested in reading M's comments at UK: Ahmadi Muslims call for 'peaceful jihad' August 1, 2004 10:41 PM
Below is one of these comments.
I would be curious to know your thoughts on this.
"But the majority Saudi people are decent human beings"
M claims that 80% of Saudis are Not Wahabbists and are peace loving Muslims.
PS: Have you read "Haterd's Kingdom" by Dore Gold
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 12:22 AM
witness,
"the barbarians are already in the gate and are employed in key position in places like the FBI".
Could you please elaborate on your above statement.I was not aware that the Islamo-fascists had infiltrated the FBI.
"Like it or not, we are going to have to learn to live in perpetual fear like the Israelis"
The Israelis are a strong,tough and intelligent group of people, that is how they have survived, and they shall continue to do so.
Furthermore, your above comment is dangerous to say the least.Living in fear is exactly what the enemy wants us to do.
Finally, the only thing I fear is the wrath of "God the Father Almighty",not the Islamic-devils.
"Then, learn a lesson or two from the crusaders of the middle ages -- at least they put a stop to the Islamic nonesense for a couple of centuries".
Below are some breif facts about the Crusades.
The first Crusade began in 1096 and they lasted approximately 250 years.During this time there were many atocties, torturing,pillaging and massacring of civilians all in the name of Christ. Many of these victims were Byzantine Christians as well as Jews that were slaugthered.
This rage continued across Europe to Constantinople where in 1204 the city was pillaged and looted of most of its great treasures.
Unfortunately your reference to the Crusades was a poor choice as this was a dark period for the world and a stain on Christianity.
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 1:29 AM
Here's an example of what's wrong with Islam and Muslim leaders.
Canada has about the same percentage of Muslims as Iraq has Christians,the article below shows how hypersensitive and paranoid they can be.
Schools out and kids will be kids,while Churches
in Iraq are being bombed by their Muslim Brother's
and have murdered at least 10 Christians,a Mosque in Hamilton Ontario Canada was hit with raw eggs.
No matter how many freedoms and rights exist for Muslims in Christian based Countries,any level of childish pranks are treated like a major racist attack. Take note on how the leaders want the prank investigated as a hate crime.
**************************************************
Muslims call on officials to condemn mosque vandalism Wednesday, July 14, 2004 5:35 pm
Hamilton mosque vandalized three times in two weeks.
(Ottawa, Canada - 14/07/2004) - The Canadian Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR-CAN) today called on local officials to condemn the recent vandalism of the Umar mosque in Hamilton, Ontario. CAIR-CAN also called on Hamilton police to treat the incident as a possible hate crime.
Recent reports indicate that vandals have thrown eggs at the mosque three times in the last two weeks. Two of the attacks occurred during prayers.In a statement issued today, CAIR-CAN wrote:
"In Islam, mosques are not simply places of worship,they are also social and community centers. "We need to hear a clear message from our officials that this type of hate activity will not be tolerated in Hamilton or in any other Canadian city. We are calling on Hamilton police to investigate this string of vandalism as possible hate crimes.
**************************************************
Meanwhile, CAIR remains mute on beheadings and blames the 9/11 attack on the JEWS,lets see them blame the Iraq bombings of Churches on the JEWS
or a plot by BUSH to justify the war and win the upcoming election later this year.
I don't see love or compassion and foregiveness being displayed by Islamic cleric's,Muslims learn
the values of Islam from Imam's and their local leaders. Harbouring hate and revengeful anger towards Jews and Christians is a learned behaviour
taught in the Mosques and community centre's.
Posted by: ala-sux [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 1:56 AM
It is difficult to insure liberty, when the friends you support are really sneaky two faced islamic fucks-I guess we cannot blame the FBI or CIA or any intelligence agency who hires lets say an arabic translator-I guess the only option they have is either hire a white guy-or hire the middle eastern guy and follow his every move-of course then we would not be supporting equal oppurtunity or we would be infringing on civil liberties-son of infedil is right--the only solution to this problem is to hunt down every one of the bastards-incorporating democracy is not an outright solution, but it has proven pretty successful in S. America and Asia. Witness, your comments about living in perpetual fear, Im sorry if you feel this way, but to live in fear is no way to live at all. Until I start seeing ragheads in the street with guns or car bombs-im not gonna fear shit-especially not with Mr. Smith and Mr. Wesson in my belt. And it seems that right now the terrorists or whatever they are supposed to be called-it seems they have their hands full trying to keep the democracy from being created. I think that we are starting to learn the tricks of the trade, and i have a good feeling that depending on who is president next term, Iraq actually might see some better days. As far as suitcase nukes being in the U.S.---i guess it is quite possible-but being that there are alot of phyics going into developing a bomb-wether it will detonate by fission or fusion, the various types of uranium needed, wether or not what they have is weapon grade uranium or uranium from an energy plant, without some serious brains it will be hard for them to create a bomb with the affects of Hiroshima. Of course u never know how lucky they can get-but be assured the government has devices for finding this shit-if they can find marijuana growing in someone's house via the usage of ultraviolet light sensors in aircraft-i would think they would have devices to detect nuclear substances.
Posted by: resister [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 2:08 AM
Resister makes some good points. Although we should all be aware of the Jihad being waged against us it would be a big mistake to see everything that's happening as "doom and gloom". A couple of my friends visited the site and, although they found it informative, they were left feeling "overwhelmed by so many negative stories." Let's try and see the positive side of the situation - people ARE waking up to the threat from Islam (just look at how many new members are posting here). Articles against Islam are starting to appear in the printed media that would have been unthinkable just months ago. I really believe the reason why Muslims in the West are suddenly becoming so pushy is because they sense their time is running out. They know we infidels are starting to catch on to their plans for jihad and they're having to speed up their efforts at turning us into dhimmis. But they are thus showing their hand too soon - they are still the minority in the West and despite the gains the liberal-left have given them the backlash is just around the corner. Sure it will be a long, painful struggle to rid ourselves of Islam's cult of death but we are already aware of who are friends and enemies are - we have the advantage.
LOVE LIFE - HATE ISLAM Spread the word....
Posted by: Son Of Albion [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 6:54 AM
I´m sad for the obligation of christian arabs to leave Middle East and going to USA, they´re clever minorities, very culte and it´s a tragedy, is a tragedy than you have to leave your country for your religion, but I would like to make a question, is in USA protected?, is in Canada protected?, in Europe I don´t ask because I´m spanish and I know the answers, I receive news from VOM, and they´re interesting.
Greetings in Christ
Posted by: Franze [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 7:23 AM
oh really? what's his name?
Posted by: forrestshalom at August 1, 2004 07:48 PM
Koffee Anan and the UN
Posted by: Mullah_Abu_Bin_Boobie [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 7:35 AM
M and forrestshalom,
Thank you very much for the web references.
Pilgrim
Posted by: Pilgrim [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 7:47 AM
Franze,
Christianity in the United States and in Canada so far is doing well.
How long this will last I can not say, as the politically correct left wing liberals continue to be enablers of , apologists for, and sympathizers with the Islamo-fascists.
May the grace and peace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 7:50 AM
A general note, out of context, about the word "Allah." The note is not directed at anybody in particular, and I'm going to make it as dry and factual as I can. :-)
As ever, folks should correct me if I am wrong.
The word "Allah" is just the Arabic word for "God." In the Arabic & English Bibles I obtained from the International Bible Society at the opening of the Gospel according to John, for example, the Arabic text uses "Allah." (That text is "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." NIV)
By simple logic and convention, we would say that the English word for "Allah" is "God." But many people use "Allah" instead of "God" in English to indicate they are talking about God-as-expounded-and-worshiped-by-Muslims as distinguished from God-as-expounded-and-worshiped-by-Jews-and-Christians.
This obviously emphasizes whatever differences exist and hides whatever commonalities exist.
End of note.
Pilgrim
Posted by: Pilgrim [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 8:22 AM
Iraq's Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani issued a statement on the bombings. Link to the news item itself at the end. Can anybody find me the Arabic text online?
----quote
"We denounce and condemn those terrible crimes... We should all be working together as a government and a people in order to put an end to the attacks against Iraqis," it added.
"We stress the need to respect the rights of Christians in Iraq and those of other religious faiths and their right to live in their home, Iraq, peacefully."
Sistani, based in the holy city of Najaf, south of Baghdad, is the most prominent and widely respected of Iraq's Shiite majority.
----end quote
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/afp/20040802/wl_mideast_afp/iraq_attacks_churches_reax_sistani
Pilgrim
Posted by: Pilgrim [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 8:48 AM
Son of Infidel,
Sorry for the confusion, but I did not say 80% of Saudis were peace loving muslims; they very well may be, but I have no way of knowing other than by talking to people in the area and asking questions. That was the tail end of a post from someone in the area who should know. I have talked with Saudis who say it is 50%.
I do not minimize the threat the US and the West is under from radical Islam. I take it very seriously which is why I supported the war-to change the face of the ME so Islamists do not continue to grow in numbers as they have done left unchecked for decades.
It is all very well for any of us to thump our chests and say just nuke them. That is never going to happen, nor should it. It then becomes imperative to deal with things in other ways. Yes, we continue hunting down who we can, work within the UN (right-lol), enlist help from other countries and all that stuff, but that is short term. In the long term, the only viable way to protect ourselves is to promote reforms, particularly in the ME. It is happening now, and OBL and the war in Iraq has essentially forced the issue, but it's going to be a slow process.
It would seem many of you here have a problem with Islam; is it Islam that is the problem or those who are radical about it? Sorry, I am a non-practicing Catholic; so don't go there. I am also Republican, so don't waste your breath.
We need to do everything we can to protect ourselves, but I would hope America could come up with something better than just nuke them all.
Posted by: M [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 9:00 AM
BTW, this is the site that I pasted info about 80% of Saudis being "peace-loving". Please note #3; it's worth the time to read thru posts. Not everyone is a boogeyman.
http://www.mahmood.tv/index.php/blog/659
Re(2): Calm down people...
Posted by: Mahmood Al-Yousif on June 19, 2004 03:52 PM
I understand your frustration. Believe me I do, however let me tell you that we (Arabs and Muslims) are even more frustrated with this situation, much more than you can imagine:
1. We have no say in the way our governments are run.
2. We CANNOT (the Arab and Muslim majority) show our sympathies on our cuffs for fear of persecution and execution.
3. For the most part, we don't care about religion, any religion, we have just become to sickened by the crimes perpetrated in religions' name.
4. We cannot even SAY what I have in 3 above for IMMEDIATELY being labeled as heretics, and that will result in just as immediate death penalty for apostasy by our Islamist friends.
5. We crave liberalism, but our liberals are treated like pariahs by our governments who can't seem to decide where their support should be.
6. Our governments cannot show that they want to progress and support liberals for the perceived threat on its existence. However some have done it in varying successes like Turkey and Tunisia.
7. Secularism is like a death penalty to any Arab/Muslim government (almost) and that's why we see the very first thing in any constitution is that it is based on Islam, if a constitution was present in the first place. What happened at the EU last night with Italy and Poland wanting to add "based on Christianity and European culture" just sickened me. Here we are aspiring to separate religion from politics and we see "the first world" countries wanting to impose texts that would take them back a few hundred years.
8. There is real and present danger for anyone and their families should they be seen as opposition in most if not all of our countries.
9. Free thought is not considered a virtue, but insolence.
10. We don't have any freedoms of the press to speak of, hence, they have to toe the official line, and provision of alternate thoughts and tolerance killed at infancy.
11. No Arab/Muslim government enjoys sympathy from their own people. We have learnt to not trust our governments for generations, hence, there is real absence of a sense of patriotism.
12. 11 would lead to not caring about whatever happens in our environment with thoughts ranging from "if it didn't happen to me or my family, I don't care" to "they deserve it, let the government clean up the mess, it's no skin off my nose."
These are some of the feelings I hear when interacting and traveling through the Gulf countries and speaking to other Arabs and Muslims.
I hope you understand the immense frustration we feel. It's not lethargy or not caring for our fellow human being. We do. We feel for everyone, but it is very difficult for an Arab to show emotion because of this ever present fear of state-sponsored-intimidation.
Should we just sit back and give up though? No chance. This situation IS changing to the better. Slowly mind you but is changing.
The irony is however is that Osama bin-Laden has served as a catalyst for this change! We despise what this animal has done for our way of life and reputation, but through his heinous acts it has FORCED change!
So we've back to the beginning of your assumption: Should change be imposed?
I think whether we like it or not it IS being and will continue to be imposed by the "west" and by the likes of bin-Laden. It's how we deal with that change and the opportunities presented by these factors is the question, and I don't have the answer for that one yet.
I believe that maybe there should be another way to impose this change, and that is by exploring partnerships and the world powers providing catalysts for change. Maybe a carrot and a stick scenario is one way: fix up your country or we won't trade with you...
But if we both - as peoples - just get frustrated and start throwing accusations and bombs at each other, we won't be fixing up any mess but adding to it.
Let's partner for peace. We KNOW that we have problems, you KNOW that you have problems, so how about calming down and looking at problems through the thoughts of partnership and try to fix them? Wouldn't that be a catalyst for change for the better?
or am I again just being naive?
Posted by: M [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 9:05 AM
M
for your consideration, here is the simple truth as expressed by Ibn Warraq:
There are moderate Muslims. Islam itself is not and can not be moderate.
Right, or it would take to remove to many verses from the Quran, don't you think so?
Posted by: Nikoz [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 10:20 AM
Furthermore,
how do we tell the wheat from the chaff, that is, distingush Ahl al-Jihad from from Ahl as-Salam?
And let me just once more remind you of Islamic taqiyya - concealment for the good of the Din (faith). Hypocrisy unlimited, in other words.
The problem is that NO Muslims can be trusted in this day and age. The stakes are too high.
Posted by: Nikoz [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 10:28 AM
moslems are the first victims of their ideology.
we can't know what percentage of them are 'radical' or 'moderate', so we need to keep our focus on the ideology.
since the ideology is impossible to change due to its historic and "divine" sanction, what moderate moslems say is irrelevant, since their ideology teaches them to lie to non/moslems.
to achieve total freedom from 'allah's' clutch,
i recommend that moslems receive Jesus Christ as their Saviour: this will cure them of their hatred.
yes i have read 'hatred's kingdom'.
its a helpful book, but like many secular observations: it doesn't go far enough for the solution.
islam will not be reformed:
but moslems can leave it if they choose, even if they live in a closed islamic state like arabia.
they can read a bible online and hear the Gospel message thru the power of the internet.
Posted by: forrestshalom [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 10:41 AM
M, do you really think you can divorce "religion" (i.e. an understanding and affirmation of moral truth) from politics? It's been tried -- in the USSR. In Cambodia. In Vietnam. In China. I'm afraid that law must concern itself with issues of right and wrong and therefore must align itself with principles derived from some source in order to stand. Would you want to live in a state where the only thing that prevented people from doing things was the fear of being caught? Here in the United States, we've had a president who thought that way and it messed us up for eight long years. No more.
As for what faith should we derive our precepts from, we know that atheism and Islam both don't work. Let's look at history to see what does work.
Posted by: NoMoreJihad [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 10:44 AM
Exactly. This continuation of appeasement of Islam is a tired joke and is going to cost too many innocent lives in the United States and the West.
Isn't it clear now, after the attacks on the churches in Iraq, that the Islamists will not stop until this becomes a cut and dried religious war for all involved?
Islam is the enemy. Anyone that that wishes to not be on the wrong side in the coming events can make a choice -- get involved in reforms of Islam to make it a true religion of peace that can exist in the modern world, or failing that, leave Islam or convert to one of the world's truly peaceful major religions like Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism or Buddhism.
The truth hurts.
Posted by: Foehammer [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 10:49 AM
Btw, leaving Islam is not a choice for most of the Muslim world because apostates are dealt with brutally more often than not.
Men are typically executed if apostasy is proven, and the women are beaten senseless until they repent and return to Islam or die from their wounds.
I also do not like anyone talking in terms that secularism does not go far enough. Secularism is what makes Christianity tolerable in our modern culture, lest anyone forgets, it was not so long ago that witches were burned at the stake and non-believers were put on torture wheels in Spain.
Don't start damning secularist ideas as being less wise than Christian ones, or you may very well start sounding like the Taliban yourselves.
Think about that.
God gave us brains to use them, not to live with blinders on.
Posted by: Foehammer [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 10:54 AM
M,
You have stated that you are a Republican, although your comments reflect the thinking of a "liberal" Democrat.Possibly you are a closet case liberal.
Basic "facts" about Islam
Islam is a religion of legalistic demands and merciless vengeance.It's "allged" prophet,Mohammed,(an avowed pedophile and child molester),when leading the Muslim armies in their conquests gave the non-believers three choices: 1) profess the faith of Islam,2) pay tribute or 3) die by the sword.
Islam is an ideology of intolorance,hate,subjugation and vindictive violence.
The Qu'an has no moral center,it preaches militant hate and death and destruction to the Infidel.
Islam, over the past 14 centuries has had a long and bloody history and it is not about to reform it's self now.In fact, with the spread of Wahabbism, Islam has only become more violent.
Your sanctimonious and appeasing posture, quite frankly makes me sick.
It is this very thinking that allowed Nazism and Fascism to spread.
The very center of Islam's core is evil.
History has taught us that evil can not be appeased, nor compromised with and never negotiated with.
The only way to deal with evil, is to destroy it!
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 11:33 AM
Son of Infidel,
I am a 53 year old mother of 3 married to an exMarine; please do no insult me by calling me a closet liberal. But if I were one, that is none of your business.
I fully understand the message regarding infidels in the Qu'an, so spare me your copy and paste skills. Are their muslims that practice Islam to the letter, certainly, and they are the enemy. I submit there are many other muslims that do not and are no different than a Catholic who believes in God but has an abortion. Your failure to accept that fact and call for their destruction along with everyone else is no different than OBL and company. No doubt God would see you burning in hell a long time for that one; you and OBL will have ALOT to talk about. Don't ever take the moral high ground with me, cause you are simply WRONG.
Posted by: M [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 12:10 PM
Resister writes:
"Witness, your comments about living in perpetual fear, Im sorry if you feel this way, but to live in fear is no way to live at all. Until I start seeing ragheads in the street with guns or car bombs-im not gonna fear shit-especially not with Mr. Smith and Mr. Wesson in my belt. "
Witness responds:
Resister, go ahead and light up a smoke while I pour you another drink. Obviously, you are a West Point graduate.
No doubt you have the bad-guys on the run!
Given your strategic and tactical insights, I'm sure we'll have the troops "home by Christmas." With generals like you on our side, we in the west can sleep better tonight -- nuke suticases or not.
Pligram writes:
"The word "Allah" is just the Arabic word for "God." In the Arabic & English Bibles I obtained from the International Bible Society at the opening of the Gospel according to John, for example, the Arabic text uses "Allah."
Witness response
Pilgram, yours is the more liberal interpretation that I have been privy to over the years. A more conservative definition holds that the title "God" is attributed to a specific deity with unique attributes and who claims exclusive title to the term "God."
As such, the dieties "Allah" and "Yahweh" are separate and distinct persona who lay compeating claim to the tile "God."
Son of Infidel wrties:
Below are some breif facts about the Crusades.
The first Crusade began in 1096 and they lasted approximately 250 years.During this time there were many atocties, torturing,pillaging and massacring of civilians all in the name of Christ. Many of these victims were Byzantine Christians as well as Jews that were slaugthered.
This rage continued across Europe to Constantinople where in 1204 the city was pillaged and looted of most of its great treasures.
Unfortunately your reference to the Crusades was a poor choice as this was a dark period for the world and a stain on Christianity."
Witness responds:
The atrocities that you attribute to Christianity are sidebars in every conflagration. There are always innocents that forefit life and limb in the ugly business we call "war."
My allusion was to the over-arching response by the Christian West to the common threat posed by Islamists who started the invasions in the first place. The unity of purpose was a consideration for both sides during the period -- to wit: "destroy them." Granted there must have been nuasances as there always will be in these matters, but the commonality of purpose is an intriging feature of the crusade period.
In this context, my observation is that today the commonality of purpose on the part of the west is lacking. This to our detriment.
But with Resister leading the charge, I'm sure we're in good hands -- no?
To M:
I feel your pain to coin a phrase. You are not in a position that I envy and suggest that you need to make some very difficult choices. No doubt that you realize that already.
So than, what to do? God knows.
Posted by: witness [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 12:12 PM
M,
To compare the Islamo-terrorist-scum to people that recognize the real threat that they pose and understand what is necassry to deal with this threat, is idiotic and ignorant.
Futhermore, I am not impressed that you are married to an ex marine and to say that I will burn in hell is an over emotional reaction on your part.
If we follow your advice we will either all be dead or bowing to Mecca.
PS: I do not "copy and paste" I use my brain, a part of your body in need of great improvement.
PSS:I still say that you are a closet case "liberal"
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 12:37 PM
From the Voice of America:
Iraqi Church Bombings Seen as Attempt to Split Religious Groups
Several of Iraq's top religious leaders have denounced Sunday's deadly bombings of five Christian churches in Baghdad and the northern city of Mosul. Iraqi government officials say those who attacked the churches were trying to drive a wedge between Christians and Muslims...
follow the link for more...
http://www.voanews.com/article.cfm?objectID=1DBE848E-D990-4A28-872081B3F11FF9E5
Posted by: al-Canine [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 12:41 PM
Here, from a former advisor to the US Department of State, is the truth about the church bombings.
Allahu akbar
Posted by: Reza [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 12:44 PM
witness,
Your interpertation of the Crusades is in error, and purely self serving.
Do some "research" and you will know the "truth".
"Like it or not, we are going to have to learn to live in perpetual fear like the Israelis"
Based on your above statement, I suggest that you get some tranquilizers to take while you are cowaring in the corner.
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 12:57 PM
With regard to crusading
I'm writing my degree on the First Crusade, specifically the relationship of the Franks and Eastern Christians.
Witness is totally right about the common purpose notion. Son of Infidel gets it all wrong. I'll presume to explain.
The crusading ideal and the real backbone of the First Crusade was a war of liberation.
Those who took the cross after pope Urban II's mighty sermon at Clermont went off to set free the Holy City from the Muslim yoke. Along with that, the pope urged the Franks to help break the chains of fellow Christians in the East, whose lands had been laid waste by the infidels.
And verily, this spirit of unity and belief in God's support was to result in the Crusade's overwhelming success.
It is also noteworthy that the vast majority of the indigenous Christians proved supportive and helpful, take for example the Armenians of Edessa or the Maronites of Lebanon.
The eventual fall of the crusader states stemmed from the inability to cooperate with Byzantium and the mutual hostility initially triggered by Bohemond of Otranto, that's true.
For more information see the faximile of M. W. Baldwin's excellent account.
http://libtext.library.wisc.edu/HistCrusades/
Posted by: Nikoz [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 12:57 PM
Nikoz,
Please enlighten me, were there any Jews or Christians killed by the Crusaders, because if you had read my previous comments that is the point I was making.
"Needless to say, Peter's Quest was doomed. They behaved poorly along the route, thieving food and ransacking homes for supplies. The worst was the persecution of the Jews before even leaving Europe".
"The Jewish peoples had lived in relative quiet amongst the Christians up to this point. Though not accepted in the Communities, they were tolerated and business was conducted in a relatively civilized manor".
"The Jewish peoples had their own communities and though they were looked down upon, they were not opposed till now. Peter's army lacked funds. It was suggested that if the Crusaders could kill the enemies of God abroad, then what's to stop them at home. Let it be noted that the Church did not condone this. Bishops locally preached against this, and some were attacked for their preaching. The Bishop of Spier saved many lives, but at Warms the Bishop was driven from his home and the Jews he sheltered were slaughtered. Same thing at the town of Mainz. The Bishops could not stop Peter's army. They continued their rage across Europe to Constantinople".
"Arriving there, Alexis didn't know what to make of them. Not wanting them to stay to cause further trouble in his city, he made arrangements to have them shipped over the Bosphorus river to Anatolia. Five days after they arrived, in July 1096, they were moved to Turkey. Most never saw the Grand city of Constantinople much to Alexis' relief".
"Once in Anatolia, Peter's followers felt it was time to start Crusading in earnest, torturing, pillaging and massacring indiscriminately. However, as it turned out, most of their victims were Byzantine Christians who lived in and around Nicaea".
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 1:19 PM
Witness,
Thanks for the concern, but I have been visiting JW for a very long time and understand the intolerance of some of the thought police here. My mother always taught me to do the right thing even if it hurts, and I am way too old to be told what I should believe.
While I might dream of mining the borders (I really mean that), stopping all immigration, deport all foreigners, and stop trading with the world and put Americans back to work being selfsufficient, that is never going to happen. Neither is nuking Mecca or destroying Islam. What we are going to kill billions of muslims now (good with the bad)because they practice some form of Islam? Don't think so. So others can rant on and make themselves feel pretty important by accomplish nothing. I would no sooner buy into that crap than I would with what OBL is selling. Wrong is wrong, pure and simple. We all have choices, and we can be part of the problem or part of the solution.
Posted by: M [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 1:39 PM
Nikoz,
Here is more "factual" information about the Crusades.
Good luck with your writing.
"The Seljuk Turks gained control of Jerusalem in 1071. Seljuk rule of Palestine lasted less than 30 years. In 1098, the Fatimids, based in Egypt, took advantage of the Seljuk struggles with the Christian crusaders from Europe. They allied themselves with the Crusaders and captured Jerusalem, Jaffa and other parts of Palestine in 1098. However, the Crusaders broke the alliance and invaded Palestine about a year later, capturing Jaffa and Jerusalem in 1099. A great slaughter of the Jewish and Muslim defenders followed, and no Jews were allowed to live in Jerusalem. The crusaders held the city until 1187, when the Muslim ruler Saladin attacked Palestine and took control of Jerusalem. The Crusaders held a dwindling area along the coast of Palestine, under treaty with Saladin. However, the Crusaders broke the treaty with Saladin and later treaties as successive crusades tried to recapture Jerusalem and were defeated. The Crusaders were finally evicted with the capture of Acre by Muslim forces in 1291. During the post-crusade period, Crusaders raided the coast of Palestine frequently. To minimize the gains from these raids, the Muslim rulers pulled back population from the coasts and practiced a scorched earth policy. The result was to greatly depopulate and impoverish the coast of Palestine for hundreds of years".
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 1:45 PM
Son of Infidel
Touche, but that was the so-called Poor People's Crusade, a false start of what the pope had envisaged. I am perfectly aware of the atrocities committed by the Germans under Emich von Leiningen and Peter the Hermit's rabble.
The reasons were these: a really bad ignorance of the crowd and the long-awaited desire for plunder.
But this wasn't the First Crusade, I'd like you to note. I'm in no way advocating this ill-conceived enterprise that predated the main expedition.
Secondly, about the 'factual information' you've just provided. It's inaccurate I have to say.
The Crusaders and the Fatimids were never able to conclude that treaty of partitioning Syria. The Egyptians took an uncompromising stance that Jerusalem should belong to them. So it made the treaty unacceptable for the Franks whose divinely sanctioned goal the Holy City was.
If you wish I could look up where I picked that in Baldwin's 'The First Hundred Years'.
Moreover, the Crusaders first offered the Fatimid governor to surrender before finally assaulting the city in July 1099.
Also pay heed that the Muslims had taken care to banish all Christians before the Franks were there.
If you have any criticism of the First Crusade proper, you're welcome to bring it up.
Posted by: Nikoz [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 2:04 PM
And just another point.
The Muslims used to hate us just in the same way they do today. Every single conquest of theirs was reckoned divinely justified. As regards the Franks who set out to recapture what the Muslims had no rights for, Ibn al-Athir (a prominent Arabic source of the late 12th c.) garbles facts and vilifies them as best he can.
E.g.: 'The capture of Jerusalem by the Franj, la'ana-hum allah' (may allah curse them).
Posted by: Nikoz [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 2:14 PM
Son of Infidel writes:
witness,
Your interpertation of the Crusades is in error, and purely self serving.
Witness responds:
I see. How exactly than am I being served?
Son of Infidel writes:
Do some "research" and you will know the "truth".
Witness responds:
Ouch! I have done considerable "research" for many years on this and many subjects. However, which "truth" would you like me to know exactly?
Quoting Witness, Son of Infidel writes:
"Like it or not, we are going to have to learn to live in perpetual fear like the Israelis"
Based on your above statement, I suggest that you get some tranquilizers to take while you are cowaring in the corner.
Witness responds:
Perhaps you can belly on up to the bar with resister over yonder and light up a smoke while I pour both of you a couple more drinks.
I enjoy learning from scholars like yourself. Perhaps, if all the rest of us plebecites just listened to your disserations, the world would be a better, happier, place.
Obviously you are either a Harvard or a Yale man -- maybe even Oxford. Let us bow to your knowledge!
The Isrealies are living in fear every single day but I don't have the impression that they are "cowering in any corner."
No doubt that your battlefied experience has taught you that "fear" is a necessary thing that keeps you alive and prevents you from making fatal mistakes while the lead flies -- so that eventually you can liquidate your enemy.
But you are a military super-hero no doubt, so if you would deign to dispense your pontifications on the matter, the rest of us will sit on the edge of our seats and listen and try to learn from you
Posted by: witness [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 2:19 PM
Nikoz,
I think you have missed my point that the Crusaders slaugthered many innocent Jews as well as other non- Muslims, as such the Crusades were a dark period in history and a stain on Christianity.
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 2:22 PM
M writes:
"Wrong is wrong, pure and simple."
Witness responds:
Pardon me if I don't ask you to belly up to the bar with the other two guests.
I'm not sure they would be fit company for you.
Nevertheless, I raise my glass in a toast to your good health.
Posted by: witness [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 2:27 PM
Witness
You have a point here. Because the time is probably near when we'll have to struggle and fight side by side.
I recently came across an Aussie's suggestion that we start learning ninjutsu to be able to defend ourselves against the mussies. He meant it:)
Posted by: Nikoz [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 2:27 PM
Son of Infidel
I've heard someone say that war has an ugly face.
I sincerely condemn these massacres.
On the other hand, you seem to have missed Witness's point about a common purpose, or unity as I see it.
That's what helped the Crusaders attain their goal and flush the Muslims out of the lands they'd subjugated under the 'rightly-guided' caliph 'Omar (may allah's piss be upon him).
Posted by: Nikoz [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 2:34 PM
witness,
"Like it or not, we are going to have to learn to live in perpetual fear like the Israelis"
Based on your above statement, I suggest that you get some tranquilizers to take while you are cowaring in the corner.
"The Isrealies are living in fear every single day but I don't have the impression that they are "cowering in any corner."
Next time read my comments correctly.
I did not state that the Israelies cowar in corners, only pretentious, pompous, intellectual jackasses like you do.
PS: Thanks for the invitation for the cocktail, but I don't drink.
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 2:37 PM
In my opinion it isn´t a good idea, speaking about crusades, well the crusades were a great mistake, totally in cases like the crusade against Bizance but It happened almost 800 years, we deserve to speak more current things because the yihad against the armenian people, one million of people killed, the slavism of serbian, romanian and bulgarian people for the Ottoman Empire and killings like the 1071 of the muslims yihad against hindus, that there are infidels and not to deserve the dhirmi, only have the right to decide how to die.
In these moments where we live the protestants and catholics don´t kill each other, the orthodox don´t have so hate to the other christians groups( the exception is Russia), and in the Western there are a lot of freedom, but in the muslim world there aren´t freedom now.
The men and women are the same?, if the answer is yes, the religious freedom have to be imposed in this countries and in the communist, but there are a lot of people that don´t agree with this, my question is ?
What is most important Democracy or Freedom Religion?, Because in almost all muslim countries the freedom religion isn´t a popular concept, greetings
Posted by: Franze [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 3:04 PM
Franze,
Thank you for your comments.
I agree with you 100%.
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 3:18 PM
Can we focus on current events?
Posted by: Bob Owens [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 3:19 PM
FYI
IRAQ THE MODEL
Monday, August 02, 2004
This is a trap.
Yesterday’s attacks on the churches were not very unexpected because the terrorists consider destroying this country their primary mission. They have attacked all Iraqis without discrimination, they murdered the She’at Muslims near their holy shrines, they attacked Sunni mosques, they attacked the IP near their stations and they assassinated our politicians and leaders and they will keep trying to attack anyone and anything to stop us from building this country but they will not defeat us, unless we submit to their evil plans; something we will never do.
I’ve tried to ask as many Iraqis as I could about their feelings and all Iraqis I met showed anger, contempt and bitterness about what happened but noone gave signs of despair.
I’ve watched many reactions on the internet and I found that many people considered what happened an aggression against Christians (and that this is what the terrorists want) while we in Iraq see it as a crime against Iraqis and this reaction is the last thing they want.
However, how the West views this is more important than our reactions as the message this time was sent to the West not to us.
This time they chose to attack what they think is a soft target and I believe that their choice is based on two sick wishes:
The first one: they think that by terrorizing the Iraqi Christian community the Iraqi Christians will get panicked and choose to leave Iraq and thus creating a situation of insecurity and distrust among Iraqis.
The second one: with these attacks they want to drag the West to believe that this a war on Christianity
and that it came as a reaction to the “war on Islam”. They want to give their war a religious shape to inflame religious sensitivities between Christians and Muslims and they want the Muslims in the West to be persecuted so that they can use it to make simple minded Muslims believe that the war on terror is a crusade.
I can say that I’m sure that the 1st one will not find a measurable success because as I mentioned earlier; in Iraq we think about the latest attacks just the same way we do about any previous ones.
As for the 2nd one, well... it’s up to you in the West and you can determine the way it affects you.
You need to be far-sighted when you decide how to respond to this test and I believe you can do that. So please, don’t fall in this trap.
Posted by: M [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 3:22 PM
More on church bombings from Sam.
Monday, August 02, 2004The Ugly Barbarism
The news about Zarqawi was just rumours! Al Zarqawi thugs carried out one of the most barbaric ugly acts against the worship places in Iraq. After the attacks against the Shiaa holy places in which hundreds were massacred he and his thugs directed their devilish intention yesterday against the Iraqi Christians' holy and historical places (Churches) in Baghdad and Mosel.
The aim is not to try to knock the Iraqi unity only but to kill as many as they can among the Iraqis who are not belonging to their doctrine of Wahabism and Salafism. The last two of course are two faces for one coin monetized in Saudi Arabia.
We saw that ugly face not against the US targets alone but in Afghanistan where Talabans trying to convert the people there into monkeys living in a jungle. They not only hate the others who don't think like them but they hate the history which is not suiting their retarded mentality. They started destroying the historical places in Najad and Hijaz (Saudi Arabia now). They destroyed all the historic places belonged to the first Muslims and Arabs!
The Christians of Najran came to see Prophet Mohammad for a dialogue and it was a Sunday! They asked the Prophet that they would like to do their prayer and he offered them his Mosque to use it for their prayer! This is the real Islam not Islam of the Mohammad Bin Abd Al Wahab which gave birth to Bin Laden and Zarqawi thugs.
In Iraq we are one nation, Christians, Sabians, Muslims as Sunni & Shia, and other religions. The Churches which were hit by the barbaric thugs are not holy places for the Christians alone but they are holy places for all of the Iraqis irrespective of their religions. They are holy for being used by human being and by Iraqis our brothers and sisters. They are now holy places for every Iraqi!
Our brothers and sisters who have been killed in the attacks of the Iraqi Churches are not only Christians but Muslims as well. The Iraqi blood mixed together to tell the thugs that we are one body and the foreign bodies are them. Sooner the Iraqi body will expose and destroy them for ever.
Posted by: M [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 3:25 PM
More about church attacks.
Monday, August 02, 2004
“Beware the wrath of the patient when finally aroused”
Hi,
The atrocity has backfired. If the intent of the criminals was to incite sectarian violence between Moslems and Christians; then they have achieved exactly the opposite. In my living memory I have never witnessed such upsurge of sympathy for the Christian community as what is happening right now. The people are really aroused now. The new Iraqi TV stations (including Al Sharqiya) are doing non-stop coverage of the event. Everybody has to proclaim his denunciation in no uncertain terms, even the hypocrites perhaps with some shy and stammering insinuations of the usual charges that perhaps it was the Americans or the Jews etc., sounding unconvinced themselves of these slanders; because even an absolute imbecile can easily guess who is behind this – and in fact, I don’t think anybody has any serious doubt about the identity of the perpetrators.
These hate creatures are beyond redemption. We can perhaps talk about dealing with the root causes of terrorism etc. etc., but this will apply to preventing future growth of the cancer, but the present cancerous cells are incurable. The only fitting solution for these is amputation.
Perhaps the most fitting solution is to prepare a great big pond of “Ordure", to put it genteelly, and drown them all in it – Bullshit to Bullshit and Excrement to Excrement, and Good Riddance for ever, brothers - beards, turbans and all; and we don't think we are going to miss you much.
And then, we shall all live happily ever after.
Salaam
Sunday, August 01, 2004
In the Name of God the Compassionate, the Merciful
The God of All
This is the limit. Ever since Mesopotamia came into being from the very first birth of civilization, never has terror of this kind been known. A coordinated attack on six Christian churches at the time of Sunday prayers, to the horror of unsuspecting worshipers: unbelievable act of cowardice and treachery that is unprecedented in all our six thousand years of history. And what scenes! makes the blood boil and freeze at the same time. Elderly men and women and young ones of our dear Iraqi Christian community with bloodied faces coming out of their hour of peaceful worship; dazed and unbelieving; and deaths, and destruction of some of the most ancient and historical Christian churches in the World. Never in our whole history has there been such an attack on the Christian community in particular, for it is a peaceful and well beloved of all Iraqis; and besides, its members are the remaining descendants of the original ancient Mesopotamians; the Chaldeans, the Assyrians, the Babylonians etc. etc.
What can we say? One is speechless, numb, shocked, bleeding internally, and angry; oh, so angry, never been angrier in a whole lifetime.
Whoever did this and whoever organized and financed this; whoever remotely tries to find excuses and justification for this, whoever even keeps quiet or is indifferent to this here and everywhere, in the East or in the West; must be pronounced excommunicate from membership of the sensible human race. All those calling for retreat and submitting to the intimidation of these monstrous zombies are traitors and cowards and will not reap but their own destruction when horror comes to their own front doors. Those who think that turning their backs and escaping the confrontation to barricade themselves in their secluded islands, is going to save their skins, are in profound and fatal delusion.
The horror will come to your own cities and your own houses. The time to fight is now and here; and the security of the Iraqis and your own security is one and indivisible.
Humans of the World: Remember.
Posted by: M [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 3:33 PM
Son of Infidel writes:
August 01, 2004
Bomb blasts rock Iraqi churches
But of course, this conflict has nothing to do with religion. From the BBC, with thanks to Susan:
The first two blasts happened near churches in the busy Karada shopping area of Baghdad, sending a plume of smoke across the neighbourhood.
At least two people are reported to have been killed in what appears to be a new tactic by insurgents.
A third blast was reported a short time later in Mosul, where a police station had been bombed earlier in the day.
Witnesses said a car bomb detonated outside an Armenian church as an evening service was getting under way.
Shattered glass
It blew out stained glass windows, and scattered pieces of hot metal across the street. The wreckage of at least three burned out cars was left in its wake.
"I saw injured women and children and men, the church's glass shattered everywhere. There's glass all over the floor," Juliette Agob, who was inside the church at the time, was quoted by the Associated Press as saying.
Ten minutes later, as the emergency services raced to the scene, a second blast went off outside a Syrian Catholic church some 400 metres from the first church.
An ambulance driver said two people had been killed.
At around the same time, a suspected car bomb went off outside a church in Mosul.
Posted at August 1, 2004 12:56 PM
Comments
(Note: Comments on articles are unmoderated, and do not necessarily reflect the views of Jihad Watch or Robert Spencer. Comments that are off-topic, offensive, slanderous, or otherwise annoying may be summarily deleted. However, the fact that particular comments remain on the site IN NO WAY constitutes an endorsement by Robert Spencer of the views expressed therein.)
I am an Iraqi christian, and i swear, i wish the USA would airlift every single Iraqi christian, and drop them on Dearnborn michigan. I wish more "christians" in the west would speak out about what happens to us.
Ps. Christians are harmless, thats why sadam used use to cook his food.
Posted by: islamwatcher at August 1, 2004 01:14 PM
Does anyone know the name or other specific information about any of the three churches mentioned in the news item?
Pilgrim
Posted by: Pilgrim at August 1, 2004 01:14 PM
Hey Catholics:
Reza's calling you "muslims" over on the Dhimmi Watch July 31 "Tariq Ramadan . . . " thread.
Posted by: CGW at August 1, 2004 01:21 PM
OT:
Great article by a CANADIAN, a must-read.
GOD BLESS AMERICA
Posted by: CGW at August 1, 2004 01:31 PM
Hey folks:
MEMRI reports as follows regarding the Saudi terror suspect who turned himself in under the Amnesty:
http://www.memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD75404
A few weeks after Al-Omari was turned in, the Saudi newspapers reported that the Saudi authorities had paid off Al-Omari's debts. According to Al-Watan, Othman Al-Omari's mother expressed her "gratitude and appreciation of Prince Muhammad Bin Naif for his noble initiative to pay off the debts of her son, who recently turned himself in to the Saudi authorities." The mother recounted that "Prince Muhammad Bin Naif contributed the entire sum, totaling 170,000 SR [$45,300], as well as a grant of 30,000 SR [$8,000] to Al-Omari's family. In addition, a monthly stipend of 3,000 SR [$800] will be paid to Othman Al-Omari's children, as well as a salary of 2,000 SR [$530] to Othman Al-Omari himself." [3]
And more recently, they have posted that the Saudi Gazette has a message of thanks from Al-Omari's mother in it. The Saudi Gazette is and English language propaganda arm of the Saudis. So, of course, your humble researcher attempted to find out if what MEMRI had posted was true. And, it must be true, because the Gazette has blocked access to every issue of the Gazette for the whole month of July.
Posted by: Mentat at August 1, 2004 01:36 PM
In 1933, five months after the British left, and having promised not to harm minorities, Muslims in Iraq attacked and murdered tens of thousands of helpless Assyrian Christians. Some say the figure was "only" 70,000. William Saroyan, of Armenian ancestry, wrote about the massacres; he called his book "70,000 Assyrians." Perhaps it is time to reprint it, along with all the eyewitness testimonies of Armenian survivors of the attacks, not based on ethnicity but rather on hatred of the "giavour" or Infidel (or "Christiand dog") which in 1894-95 and to much more murderous effect, in 1915 and the years following, by Turks, and Kurds, and even by the Arabs of the Syrian Desert who would pick off Armenian women and girls as they made their way to the relative safety of Christian communities in such places as Haleb (Aleppo) and Beirut.
The attacks on Christian churches, and on Chistians in Iraq, is simply one more chapter in the long history, recorded by Bat Ye'or in "The Decline of Eastern Christianity Under Islam," a book that should be read by policymakers, and by all those who take an interest in what Islam holds in store for Infidels.
And, of course,one need only look at the slow asphyxiation of the Copts in Egypt, of the once-thriving Christian civilization of North Africa (home of both Tertullian and St. Augustine), of formerly-Christian Byzantium with its vast riches and advanced civilization, of Christians today anywhere that Muslims predominate -- in Pakisan and the Sudan and Indonesia -- or even where they form a minority sufficiently strong to feel it can go on the attack (as in the Philippines, and in Bosnia and Kosovo).
How much evidence, from the texts of Islam, and from the behavior of Muslims through time and space, does one need? What further evidence does one require?
Posted by: Hugh at August 1, 2004 02:06 PM
islamwatcher,
You said, "I wish more 'christians' in the west would speak out about what happens to us."
Where would I obtain information about what is happening to you? I can read Arabic poorly, French better, and English best. I can speak Arabic somewhat better than I read it.
To whom should I speak out?
If you wish to contact me directly, use mt1016b-tango@yahoo.com
Pilgrim
Posted by: Pilgrim at August 1, 2004 02:10 PM
This was mentioned in passing on a local chicago news talk show, just before the cut to something more important -- sports!
It is sad because the priorities of the American media are incomprehensible to me.
Now if this were a mosque, well now, that would be a hate crime and the media would go nuts!
Posted by: witness at August 1, 2004 02:26 PM
Wait a minute, according to that NYT beacon of secular platitudes, Nicholas Kristof, believing Christians are equally, a danger to civilization as we in the West know it, as believing Muslims are.
So what if the Koran sounds more like Mein Kempf than the Bible, so what if the word "Islam" literally translates into "submission", peace thru conquest. So what if the more violent passages of the Koran abrogate the earlier tolerant passages. So what if even moderate Muslims living the US talk on their blogs about the coming Islamic caliphate, and a Muslim in the white house.
We need to turn the discussion to True & False. Was the emperor of Japan, God? NO. Because the Japanese sincerely believed he was, did that make it so? NO. Does Allah, who needs the constant killing off of unbelievers, sound like he loves the little children? I don't think so. Instead he encourages his Islamic followers to raise their own children to become living bombs. Too, its their only assurance of Salvation with a lust-filled heaven in return. Does Allah sound anything like God to you?
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. -1 John 4:1
Posted by: daughter of patriots at August 1, 2004 02:31 PM
To Islamwatcher:
I am catholic too, spanish, but catholic, am very sad for what was happening, can you explain to us, if the situation for christians is better than before, and I would like to say that christians iraquis dont´have to leave Iraq, I dont´want a islamic republic, the christians in Iraq and like other countries are very culte and without them the arabic countries and non-arabic muslims countries would be in the Stone Age.
Greetings and my prayings for this christian and catholic people murdered in the name of Islam.
Posted by: Franze at August 1, 2004 02:52 PM
islamwatcher and pilgrim,
The Voice of the Martyrs is a non-profit, interdenominational organization with
a vision for aiding Christians around the world who are being persecuted for their beliefs.
VOM was founded by the Reverand Richard Wurmbrand, who spent 14 years in Romanian prisons.He wrote a book called Tortured for Christ as well as others.
Below is the link to their website.I hope this will be of help.
http://www.persecution.com/
Posted by: Son of Infidel at August 1, 2004 03:05 PM
Pilgrim, thankyou for the solidarity, God bless all of you. Among iraqis the news travels fast, and through our media locals.
For western people, you need to read between the lines, as sad as it seems, they will cover it breifly. The best thing is to write to your congress and politicians, and ask them to forward the immigration process of the middle east christians. Remeber, muslims would arent refugues when they leave their islamic utopias.
Thankyou everyone, please keep us in prayer.
Posted by: islamwatcher at August 1, 2004 03:07 PM
Islamwatcher,
I am an American Christian and have already been praying for Iraqi Christians and am part of the Voice of the Martyr supporters. My first thought when I heard about the church blasts was that we should send planes to pick up all the Iraqi Christians and resettle them in the United States. If our FBI needs translators, why not the Iraqi Christians. Please keep posting here so we know how things are going. I will be contacting my govt officials about the plight of Iraqi Christians tomorrow. Be strong and courageous. Remember what Peter wrote about:
12Dear friends, do not be surprised at the painful trial you are suffering, as though something strange were happening to you. 13But rejoice that you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when His glory is revealed.
Jesus has already overcome the world and is with you as you go through the fire. I would prefer that all Christians in Muslim countries would come here to the U.S. if that were possible...because the judgement of the Islamic nations is at hand; Muslims are not fighting us, they are fighting Jesus since Christ lives in us. Their time is short. Remember Psalm 2 and Psalm 37. Don't be discouraged, we will see the day when every Muslim knee will bend to Jesus and every Muslim will confess that He is Lord not their false deity...we will even see the false prophet of Islam and OBL bowing to Jesus before Jesus removes them from us forever.
Remembering you in prayer and asking for your protection and deliverance!
Posted by: Abby at August 1, 2004 03:36 PM
this would be a great opportunity for 'brother' bush
our 'christian' president to demonstrate his faith:
evacuate all professing christians out of iraq and bring them to the usa.
(but i won't hold my breath on it)
by the way i came across an excellent article by
hugh fitzgerald entitled
'islam for the perplexed'
http://mailman.io.com/pipermail/freemanlist/2004-July/002457.html
Posted by: forrestshalom at August 1, 2004 04:04 PM
The sad thing is that tomorrow, the entire arab media will be describing these bombings as the work of Zionists/Mossad/Jews/Coalition Forces. A new conspiracy will be afoot.
I agree with everyone: Let's get the Christians out now!
Posted by: 3812Michelle at August 1, 2004 04:16 PM
Later reports say that six churches, not three, were attacked.
Pilgrim
Posted by: Pilgrim at August 1, 2004 04:18 PM
Forrestshalom,
If the President of the United States was a Jew, what actions would he take to help other Jews out side of the US.
I am geting a bit tired of your biased anti-Christian/Bush Rhetoric.
Futhermore, the Bush Administration has been very supportive of "Israel", more so than previous Administrations, MR. "Shalom"
You seem to have some type of issue with Christianty.
"lets face the TRUTH".
"the west: led by 'christian' america is in an alliance with the muslims".
"the war against 'terrorism' is only a ploy".
Posted by: forrestshalom at July 30, 2004 11:46 AM
Posted by: Son of Infidel at August 1, 2004 05:22 PM
I am in canada, and i am going to be writing to my politicians to forward some of these people in. Let me tell you this, muslims, like the leeches they are, do pose as christians when they want to get to western countries, and many western immigration officials do ask them to recite certain prayers (this has happened to much of my family)
I press my american brothers and sisters to do the same, or any westerners for that matter.
I can remember seeing pics and reading about how Israel airlifted the remaining jews in iraq to safety, i wish the U.S. could do this.
God bless the U.S.A.
Posted by: islamwatcher at August 1, 2004 05:23 PM
islamwatcher,
Here is the US "all" politicians play the game of "politics" and as such it is unlikely and "unfortunate" that any action will be taken to airlift Christians out of Iraq or any other place in the world.
At this time George Bush is the best option we have.Until there is a better one, I shall support him.
The Voice of the Martyrs is a good organization.I recommend that you contact them.
May the grace and peace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you evermore.
Son of Infidel
Posted by: Son of Infidel at August 1, 2004 06:18 PM
the war against islam will not be won by killing
a few or alot of muslims here and there.
it will be won once the ideology/religion is identified and dispatched. something that bush can't
see.
i don't think that this war will ulimately be won by humans, as it is diaobolical(satanic:hence spiritual
in nature).
a jewish american president? good idea. hopefully he would help his fellow jews in trouble like sharon
and israel does.
church going clinton and now bush has not lifted a finger to help any professing christian in muslim lands.
a HUGE difference! :)
Posted by: forrestshalom at August 1, 2004 06:25 PM
Just look at the climate of fear these barbarians have thrust our way of life into: "Hercules" police on library steps in NYC armed like soldiers.
Should we accept this or should we fight?
It is time to hold Islam to account for perpetuating this climate of hate.
Are you reading this, Saudi Arabia?
Are you reading this, mullahs in Iran?
Are you reading this, Syrian jihadists?
Are you reading this, Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt?
Welcome to the New Crusade.
America once had a climate where no Communist was welcome. Let us now allow no Muslim here that condones "Jihad." Reform or be expelled. That's the only wisdom I can see for dealing with Islam in the United States.
Al Qaeda -- attack us if you will, but be forwarned now -- the climate in the United States is like the foundering of your twisted cult on the razors edge and whichever way you push us it will cut badly for you.
Posted by: Foehammer at August 1, 2004 06:36 PM
I remember being very excited when I discovered VOM. Their materials are very professional and it seemed they had some good projects and actions going.
Over the year or so that I received their materials I formed an impression that I am posting here in order that it may be corrected if it is wrong. My impression was that VOM concentrated almost exclusively on Protestant Christians, especially Evangelicals. The item I remember -- but this is only my memory, and may well be selective or fallible! -- was an item on some persecutions on Cyprus, and Orthodox Christians weren't mentioned at all (either as having been persecuted or even as part of the scenery). FYI, I am Orthodox Christian.
Nonetheless, VOM is the first place I would try to get to notice what is happening to Christians in Iraq. And for all I know they've already done articles on it. :-)
Pilgrim
Posted by: Pilgrim at August 1, 2004 06:37 PM
Here is a possible resource but I know nothing about them so please don't flame me, just enlighten me.
Middle East Council of Churches
http://www.mecchurches.org/
Pilgrim
Posted by: Pilgrim at August 1, 2004 06:42 PM
an iraq (babylon) empty of jews?
i think this is highly significant prophetically.
during the great tribulation the jews are warned to flee mystery babylon.
obviously jews aren't returning to literal babylon/iraq soon.
my leading (in fact only) candidate for the accursed
"mystery babylon" is america.
america is the largest outpost of diaspora jews in the world: about 6 million.
God warns them to 'come out of her (mystery babylon)
before the final blows of judgement fall.
personally i think it is an islamic nuclear attack...
Posted by: forrestshalom at August 1, 2004 06:44 PM
And here is the only list of Baghdad Christian churches I've been able to find. I don't know how old it is. It may help identify the churches attacked today.
http://www.chaldeansonline.net/church/christian.html
Pilgrim
Posted by: Pilgrim at August 1, 2004 06:45 PM
as for the usa or bush being 'friends' with israel:
I DOUBT IT! this would be a funny statement if it were not so tragic and full of dire consequences.
how can the usa be the FRIENDS of both saudi arabia and israel?
the west led by the usa has armed the muslim world
and they in turn are using them on us.
another analogy from the book of daniel chapter 2:
iron/clay
iron:western arms and technology
clay:muslim oil
hint: "a'rav"
Posted by: forrestshalom at August 1, 2004 06:58 PM
Iraqi Christians of whatever denomination,come and join your brothers and sisters in the West.
We will welcome you with open arms. Apply as a persecuted minority for residence in New Zealand.
Posted by: Morgane at August 1, 2004 07:00 PM
Forrestshalom,
Israel is a "Jewish State" and was created for the preservation and continuance of the Jewish people.
Ezekiel 11:17
17 Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.
The United States is a nation of many faiths.
If President Bush were to bring persecuted Christians from other parts of the world to this country, or for that matter if any other President were to do this, they would be obligated to do the same for people of other faiths.
As such your previous comments are in error.
However I do agree with you concerning the diabolical "evil" of Islam.
The prophesy of the Book of Revelation will be fulfilled.
Posted by: Son of Infidel at August 1, 2004 07:01 PM
clarification:
as for the usa or bush being 'friends' with israel:
I DOUBT IT! this would be a funny statement if it were not so tragic and full of dire consequences.
-------------
i meant to say 'tragically false' in the above statement.
Posted by: forrestshalom at August 1, 2004 07:02 PM
There is an inherentl differerence between Middle eastern Muslims and Middle Eastern Christians who liv ein the West.
And everywhere the story is the same.....Its the Muslims who cause the most trouble, show no respect,and are involved in subversive activities.....
The case ir closed.....and so are the socialists eyes it seems.
Posted by: Joe Bananas at August 1, 2004 07:08 PM
mystery babylon has many faiths alright.
and the king of false gospels: islam has arrived
to punish.
don't get uptite,
this is my opinion and i could be wrong.
i often wish i was wrong: i don't want my children
to live in a jew-less islamically enlightened country.
Posted by: forrestshalom at August 1, 2004 07:09 PM
Here's a link to a Canadian Islamic site that feels the media should be censored from printing the truth about the Saudis funding Wahabbism in Canada.
http://www.canadianislamiccongress.org/mc/media_communique.php?mcdate=2004-07-31
**************************************************
You'll get a laugh out of their "Islamophobe of the year" section,even though an ex-member from
the C.I.C. that now runs the www.muslimcanadiancongress.org has stated in public that Saudis fund seminars and speakers to push Wahabbism in Canada,the C.I.C. leader,Mohamed Elmasry insists the claims are really Islomophobia. Elmasry was on a Canadian show and mocked a Muslims female for not wearing an Hijab,she was a sinner to be judged by Allah in the day of Judgement.
Canadian Muslims have been on the CBC and proudly boasted that the USA derserved the 9/11 attack which include 25 dead Canadians.A local Mosque in Toronto now raises money for a Al-Qaeda family in Canada that praised Osama and suicide murderers.They want us dead and any excuse to blame Jews to justify slaughtering non-Muslims is now the standard procedure for Jihad.
Posted by: ala-sux at August 1, 2004 07:09 PM
Forrestshalom,
I agree with you concerning the arming of Arab/Muslims States by the US and I am totally against this.
Tell me what other Counrty gives the amount of miltary and economic support that the US does to the State of Israel.
Posted by: Son of Infidel at August 1, 2004 07:12 PM
Typo: what other "country" gives
Posted by: Son of Infidel at August 1, 2004 07:17 PM
to quote the emminent israeli scholar
yohanan ramati:
'there will be a palestinian state if the usa wants
one'.
he said further: israel is in no position to be isolated further in the world. clearly meaning that
tiny israel will do what big 'caesar' insists on.
yes it is a good thing that america currently gives israel financial support. besides being currently a safe haven for jews, it is the only thing that prevents the judgement aspect of the abrahamic covenant (gen 12.3) from kicking in.
america is playing a dangerous and deadly game in
trying to be friends with both sides.
i think therefore that the anti-christ comes out of america to negotiate a 7 year peace agreement with israel and the muslims.
america is the only 'respected' power broker for both sides.
does anyone else see this?
Posted by: forrestshalom at August 1, 2004 07:23 PM
Forestshalom,
It troubles me to see any Jew calling into question the alliance of the United States to Israel.
Go find a copy of "Friends in Deed" by Dan Raviv and Yossi Melman and end your ignorant ranting.
The United States has stood by Israel when all else in the world would have tossed you to the wolves decades ago. Do not start this revisionist dialogue here and especially not now. We have our own problems to deal with in the United States now, and it is due in no small way to our support of Israel amongst other things.
Posted by: Foehammer at August 1, 2004 07:38 PM
i'm gentile not jewish.
but the problem that can't be whisked away is:
the usa is in bed with the devil in saudi arabia.
this has been in developement for over 100 years.
now the devil wants his pound of flesh.
Posted by: forrestshalom at August 1, 2004 07:44 PM
Forrestshalom,
The current Administration, I hope is well aware of the dangers of a Palestinian State.
If the "politically correct" liberal Democrats ever get into the White House the possibilty of a Palesttinian State would be more likely.
The anti-Christ is already in the world and he shall rise from the continent of Europe.
Posted by: Son of Infidel at August 1, 2004 07:44 PM
oh really? what's his name?
Posted by: forrestshalom at August 1, 2004 07:48 PM
Forrestshalom,
Gentile? Oh, well, whatever denomination you are, the same statements I made earlier apply. You once again are talking in distortions:
"the usa is in bed with the devil in saudi arabia.
this has been in developement for over 100 years."
Saudi Arabia was established in 1932.
You do the math.
Regardless, not all Saudi Arabians are our enemies, regardless of the nature of Islam. We need to deal with them firmly and harshly if necessary, but to act as if they harbor some great evil is insanity. The great evil that faces us is the continuation of the lies that push us toward some self-fulfilling prophecy from any side of the fence.
If any prophecy must be fulfilled, let it be one of the dignity of mankind and not fruitless destruction at the hands of zealots on all sides.
Posted by: Foehammer at August 1, 2004 07:53 PM
Forrestshalom,
This will be revealed in the future.
I am perfectly sane and quite serious about my statement.
Posted by: Son of Infidel at August 1, 2004 07:53 PM
But to be more on the subject......I think that soon people are going to start to have a gutfull of all this.
9/11 has only emboldened these people to think that they will soon take over, their arrogance and irrational logic, along with their maifesto(Quran) is just bringing this out in the open.
The only people playing their game are the fools who think that all this is is just wishfull thinking amongst a few "zealouts".
Just out of curiosity though how do you know that the Anti-Christ is allready in Europe? I dont seem to have any scriptures to prove this?
Posted by: Joe Bananas at August 1, 2004 07:57 PM
definition clarification:
jew: anyone physically descended from ya'acov(jacob).
gentile: anyone else.
christian: a jew or gentile who has personally received Yeshua Ha'Machiach as his messiah and savior by calling upon Him to save him: believing in his hear that he died for their sins and rose again.
israel: the jewish people: whether in the promised land or not. can also mean the physical land that God promised the jews.
church: comprised of those defined as christian above.
christendom: probably the best term used to describe
anyone or anyTHING calling itself "christian". but not fulfilling the biblical definition.
questions?
Posted by: forrestshalom at August 1, 2004 07:59 PM
Forrestshalom......Forgive me but I dont understand what this has to do with Muslims wanting to Kill everyone or subduing them and impose Sharia law on the Earth.
As far as I'm concerned Muslims just want all Jews dead (along with everyone it seems, including and occasionaly some of their own)
Ahhhh what a peacefull religion...
Posted by: Joe Bananas at August 1, 2004 08:02 PM
Ok, now this thread is going in the wrong direction.
Posted by: Foehammer at August 1, 2004 08:03 PM
Foehammer,
I would be interested to know what course of action do you think would be appropriate in dealing with the Islamic Countries, such as Saudi Arabia, Iran and Syria?
"We need to deal with them firmly and harshly if necessary, but to act as if they harbor some great evil is insanity. The great evil that faces us is the"
Whether you believe this or not, there is a Satanic fury behind the "evil" of Islam.
Posted by: Son of Infidel at August 1, 2004 08:08 PM
yes i am a gentile according to the biblical given above, but i have a jewish saviour Jesus or
'Yeshua' in hebrew.
americans first made contact with arabia in the late
20th century. they were american missionaries from the reformed church in america. they gained the trust of the arabians: (yes i know saud came later).
this laid the foundation of trust enabling americans to beat the europeans to the oil concession.
i have fascinating info to share on this
strange alliance in the future,and i am trying to find more information on the early formative years.
still this is decidedly not good at all according to the jewish bible: old and new covenants (all written by jews).
Posted by: forrestshalom at August 1, 2004 08:09 PM
islam is satanic to the core:
and the problem goes back to isaac/ishmael.
ultimately satan is in opposition to the Creator God: the God of Israel and His Son Jesus Christ.
the lord is allowing satan to manuever the nations including unbelieving national israel for the grand
finale.
i hope everyone chooses to be on the 'RIGHT' side, and the winning side by the way.
best regards to all: time for my bike ride
shalom
Posted by: forrestshalom at August 1, 2004 08:15 PM
Joe,
I can't go into anymore detail about this now and I am not trying to avoid your question.
Just keep your eye on the events taking place in Europe.
Posted by: Son of Infidel at August 1, 2004 08:15 PM
Son of Infidel:
I've discussed this before, but it comes down to this -- before this conflict is over, I am convinced that Islamic nations worldwide and the Muslims here in the United States will all have to answer a call from the West:
Reform Islam and unconditionally cease all terrorist support, or face world war. Islam must answer or this evil will just cycle back and forth for all time until Islam finally attains its ultimate goal of religious dominance at the cost of modernity, humanity and the future.
This event will most likely manifest only after the United States and/or other predominantly Western/Judao-Christian nations suffer catastrophic terrorist acts that finally shake the rest us out of our Utopian-liberal delirium.
The current atmosphere is just the quiet before the storm, in my opinion. It is just a damn shame that it always takes tragedy to awaken Americans.
Posted by: Foehammer at August 1, 2004 08:21 PM
The current atmosphere is just the quiet before the storm, in my opinion. It is just a damn shame that it always takes tragedy to awaken Americans.
Amen to that...
There is one big whopping earth changing event just lurking around the corner.....waiting to happen.
Posted by: Joe Bananas at August 1, 2004 08:40 PM
I appreciate your reply, although unfortunately you are mistaken.
The Islamic countries and Muslims that you speak of will never reform what they believe to be the "truth" about their vile and "evil" ideology.
This belief they have is in their blood,their soul and their very existence.
The threat of force will not deter them from their present course and as you have seen they are more than willing to die for "Allah".
Well planned,clear and decisive military action aganist the countries that harbor, support and finance the Islamo-fascists is what is needed,vailed threats will accomplish nothing.
This current battle is unlike any that the world has faced before.Ultimately this will become the final conflict.
I am afraid that because of man's inability to learn from the past, he will pay a great price in the future.
Posted by: Son of Infidel at August 1, 2004 08:55 PM
islamwatcher said, “am an Iraqi christian, and i swear, i wish the USA would airlift every single Iraqi christian, and drop them on Dearnborn michigan. I wish more "christians" in the west would speak out about what happens to us.”
islamwatcher, I hope all is well with your friends and family in Iraq.
Posted by: Sheik Canuck (swt) at August 1, 2004 10:06 PM
islamwatcher,
Can you or someone else point me at any web sites in Baghdad (maybe a newspaper or something?) that would give details on the churches attacked and so forth? Arabic is fine.
Pilgrim
Posted by: Pilgrim at August 1, 2004 10:41 PM
Pilgrim,
Try these; most current news is in the comment sections usually days before we get it. Local news organizations listed on side of blogs like Iraqinet may have more info.
http://messopotamian.blogspot.com/
http://iraqthemodel.blogspot.com/
http://hammorabi.blogspot.com/
Posted by: M at August 1, 2004 10:59 PM
The few comments that I have read here leaves me the the distraught impression that we are terrorized to some degree already.
While we debate the issues and agree on nothing, the barbarians are already in the gate and are employed in key position in places like the FBI.
Short of suitcase nukes going off or something, my sense suggests that the good old Norman Rockwell days in American are gone.
Like it or not, we are going to have to learn to live in perpetual fear like the Isrealies. But give credit to the other side for at least being united in a common cause which unfortunately is to destroy us.
Solutions? Short term, rescue the Christians and Jews in the Islamic countries and stop bikering over small stuff. Then, learn a lesson or two from the crusaders of the middle ages -- at least they put a stop to the Islamic nonesense for a couple of centuries.
Long term, it's in God's hands - not allah's.
Posted by: witness at August 1, 2004 11:18 PM
here's a site i found:
http://assyrianchristians.com/
Posted by: forrestshalom at August 1, 2004 11:22 PM
Forrestshalom,
You might be interested in reading M's comments at UK: Ahmadi Muslims call for 'peaceful jihad' August 1, 2004 10:41 PM
Below is one of these comments.
I would be curious to know your thoughts on this.
"But the majority Saudi people are decent human beings"
M claims that 80% of Saudis are Not Wahabbists and are peace loving Muslims.
PS: Have you read "Haterd's Kingdom" by Dore Gold
Posted by: Son of Infidel at August 2, 2004 12:22 AM
witness,
"the barbarians are already in the gate and are employed in key position in places like the FBI".
Could you please elaborate on your above statement.I was not aware that the Islamo-fascists had infiltrated the FBI.
"Like it or not, we are going to have to learn to live in perpetual fear like the Israelis"
The Israelis are a strong,tough and intelligent group of people, that is how they have survived, and they shall continue to do so.
Furthermore, your above comment is dangerous to say the least.Living in fear is exactly what the enemy wants us to do.
Finally, the only thing I fear is the wrath of "God the Father Almighty",not the Islamic-devils.
"Then, learn a lesson or two from the crusaders of the middle ages -- at least they put a stop to the Islamic nonesense for a couple of centuries".
Below are some breif facts about the Crusades.
The first Crusade began in 1096 and they lasted approximately 250 years.During this time there were many atocties, torturing,pillaging and massacring of civilians all in the name of Christ. Many of these victims were Byzantine Christians as well as Jews that were slaugthered.
This rage continued across Europe to Constantinople where in 1204 the city was pillaged and looted of most of its great treasures.
Unfortunately your reference to the Crusades was a poor choice as this was a dark period for the world and a stain on Christianity.
Posted by: Son of Infidel at August 2, 2004 01:29 AM
Here's an example of what's wrong with Islam and Muslim leaders.
Canada has about the same percentage of Muslims as Iraq has Christians,the article below shows how hypersensitive and paranoid they can be.
Schools out and kids will be kids,while Churches
in Iraq are being bombed by their Muslim Brother's
and have murdered at least 10 Christians,a Mosque in Hamilton Ontario Canada was hit with raw eggs.
No matter how many freedoms and rights exist for Muslims in Christian based Countries,any level of childish pranks are treated like a major racist attack. Take note on how the leaders want the prank investigated as a hate crime.
**************************************************
Muslims call on officials to condemn mosque vandalism Wednesday, July 14, 2004 5:35 pm
Hamilton mosque vandalized three times in two weeks.
(Ottawa, Canada - 14/07/2004) - The Canadian Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR-CAN) today called on local officials to condemn the recent vandalism of the Umar mosque in Hamilton, Ontario. CAIR-CAN also called on Hamilton police to treat the incident as a possible hate crime.
Recent reports indicate that vandals have thrown eggs at the mosque three times in the last two weeks. Two of the attacks occurred during prayers.In a statement issued today, CAIR-CAN wrote:
"In Islam, mosques are not simply places of worship,they are also social and community centers. "We need to hear a clear message from our officials that this type of hate activity will not be tolerated in Hamilton or in any other Canadian city. We are calling on Hamilton police to investigate this string of vandalism as possible hate crimes.
**************************************************
Meanwhile, CAIR remains mute on beheadings and blames the 9/11 attack on the JEWS,lets see them blame the Iraq bombings of Churches on the JEWS
or a plot by BUSH to justify the war and win the upcoming election later this year.
I don't see love or compassion and foregiveness being displayed by Islamic cleric's,Muslims learn
the values of Islam from Imam's and their local leaders. Harbouring hate and revengeful anger towards Jews and Christians is a learned behaviour
taught in the Mosques and community centre's.
Posted by: ala-sux at August 2, 2004 01:56 AM
It is difficult to insure liberty, when the friends you support are really sneaky two faced islamic fucks-I guess we cannot blame the FBI or CIA or any intelligence agency who hires lets say an arabic translator-I guess the only option they have is either hire a white guy-or hire the middle eastern guy and follow his every move-of course then we would not be supporting equal oppurtunity or we would be infringing on civil liberties-son of infedil is right--the only solution to this problem is to hunt down every one of the bastards-incorporating democracy is not an outright solution, but it has proven pretty successful in S. America and Asia. Witness, your comments about living in perpetual fear, Im sorry if you feel this way, but to live in fear is no way to live at all. Until I start seeing ragheads in the street with guns or car bombs-im not gonna fear shit-especially not with Mr. Smith and Mr. Wesson in my belt. And it seems that right now the terrorists or whatever they are supposed to be called-it seems they have their hands full trying to keep the democracy from being created. I think that we are starting to learn the tricks of the trade, and i have a good feeling that depending on who is president next term, Iraq actually might see some better days. As far as suitcase nukes being in the U.S.---i guess it is quite possible-but being that there are alot of phyics going into developing a bomb-wether it will detonate by fission or fusion, the various types of uranium needed, wether or not what they have is weapon grade uranium or uranium from an energy plant, without some serious brains it will be hard for them to create a bomb with the affects of Hiroshima. Of course u never know how lucky they can get-but be assured the government has devices for finding this shit-if they can find marijuana growing in someone's house via the usage of ultraviolet light sensors in aircraft-i would think they would have devices to detect nuclear substances.
Posted by: resister at August 2, 2004 02:08 AM
Resister makes some good points. Although we should all be aware of the Jihad being waged against us it would be a big mistake to see everything that's happening as "doom and gloom". A couple of my friends visited the site and, although they found it informative, they were left feeling "overwhelmed by so many negative stories." Let's try and see the positive side of the situation - people ARE waking up to the threat from Islam (just look at how many new members are posting here). Articles against Islam are starting to appear in the printed media that would have been unthinkable just months ago. I really believe the reason why Muslims in the West are suddenly becoming so pushy is because they sense their time is running out. They know we infidels are starting to catch on to their plans for jihad and they're having to speed up their efforts at turning us into dhimmis. But they are thus showing their hand too soon - they are still the minority in the West and despite the gains the liberal-left have given them the backlash is just around the corner. Sure it will be a long, painful struggle to rid ourselves of Islam's cult of death but we are already aware of who are friends and enemies are - we have the advantage.
LOVE LIFE - HATE ISLAM Spread the word....
Posted by: Son Of Albion at August 2, 2004 06:54 AM
I´m sad for the obligation of christian arabs to leave Middle East and going to USA, they´re clever minorities, very culte and it´s a tragedy, is a tragedy than you have to leave your country for your religion, but I would like to make a question, is in USA protected?, is in Canada protected?, in Europe I don´t ask because I´m spanish and I know the answers, I receive news from VOM, and they´re interesting.
Greetings in Christ
Posted by: Franze at August 2, 2004 07:23 AM
oh really? what's his name?
Posted by: forrestshalom at August 1, 2004 07:48 PM
Koffee Anan and the UN
Posted by: Mullah_Abu_Bin_Boobie at August 2, 2004 07:35 AM
M and forrestshalom,
Thank you very much for the web references.
Pilgrim
Posted by: Pilgrim at August 2, 2004 07:47 AM
Franze,
Christianity in the United States and in Canada so far is doing well.
How long this will last I can not say, as the politically correct left wing liberals continue to be enablers of , apologists for, and sympathizers with the Islamo-fascists.
May the grace and peace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.
Posted by: Son of Infidel at August 2, 2004 07:50 AM
A general note, out of context, about the word "Allah." The note is not directed at anybody in particular, and I'm going to make it as dry and factual as I can. :-)
As ever, folks should correct me if I am wrong.
The word "Allah" is just the Arabic word for "God." In the Arabic & English Bibles I obtained from the International Bible Society at the opening of the Gospel according to John, for example, the Arabic text uses "Allah." (That text is "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." NIV)
By simple logic and convention, we would say that the English word for "Allah" is "God." But many people use "Allah" instead of "God" in English to indicate they are talking about God-as-expounded-and-worshiped-by-Muslims as distinguished from God-as-expounded-and-worshiped-by-Jews-and-Christians.
This obviously emphasizes whatever differences exist and hides whatever commonalities exist.
End of note.
Pilgrim
Posted by: Pilgrim at August 2, 2004 08:22 AM
Iraq's Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani issued a statement on the bombings. Link to the news item itself at the end. Can anybody find me the Arabic text online?
----quote
"We denounce and condemn those terrible crimes... We should all be working together as a government and a people in order to put an end to the attacks against Iraqis," it added.
"We stress the need to respect the rights of Christians in Iraq and those of other religious faiths and their right to live in their home, Iraq, peacefully."
Sistani, based in the holy city of Najaf, south of Baghdad, is the most prominent and widely respected of Iraq's Shiite majority.
----end quote
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/afp/20040802/wl_mideast_afp/iraq_attacks_churches_reax_sistani
Pilgrim
Posted by: Pilgrim at August 2, 2004 08:48 AM
Son of Infidel,
Sorry for the confusion, but I did not say 80% of Saudis were peace loving muslims; they very well may be, but I have no way of knowing other than by talking to people in the area and asking questions. That was the tail end of a post from someone in the area who should know. I have talked with Saudis who say it is 50%.
I do not minimize the threat the US and the West is under from radical Islam. I take it very seriously which is why I supported the war-to change the face of the ME so Islamists do not continue to grow in numbers as they have done left unchecked for decades.
It is all very well for any of us to thump our chests and say just nuke them. That is never going to happen, nor should it. It then becomes imperative to deal with things in other ways. Yes, we continue hunting down who we can, work within the UN (right-lol), enlist help from other countries and all that stuff, but that is short term. In the long term, the only viable way to protect ourselves is to promote reforms, particularly in the ME. It is happening now, and OBL and the war in Iraq has essentially forced the issue, but it's going to be a slow process.
It would seem many of you here have a problem with Islam; is it Islam that is the problem or those who are radical about it? Sorry, I am a non-practicing Catholic; so don't go there. I am also Republican, so don't waste your breath.
We need to do everything we can to protect ourselves, but I would hope America could come up with something better than just nuke them all.
Posted by: M at August 2, 2004 09:00 AM
BTW, this is the site that I pasted info about 80% of Saudis being "peace-loving". Please note #3; it's worth the time to read thru posts. Not everyone is a boogeyman.
http://www.mahmood.tv/index.php/blog/659
Re(2): Calm down people...
Posted by: Mahmood Al-Yousif on June 19, 2004 03:52 PM
I understand your frustration. Believe me I do, however let me tell you that we (Arabs and Muslims) are even more frustrated with this situation, much more than you can imagine:
1. We have no say in the way our governments are run.
2. We CANNOT (the Arab and Muslim majority) show our sympathies on our cuffs for fear of persecution and execution.
3. For the most part, we don't care about religion, any religion, we have just become to sickened by the crimes perpetrated in religions' name.
4. We cannot even SAY what I have in 3 above for IMMEDIATELY being labeled as heretics, and that will result in just as immediate death penalty for apostasy by our Islamist friends.
5. We crave liberalism, but our liberals are treated like pariahs by our governments who can't seem to decide where their support should be.
6. Our governments cannot show that they want to progress and support liberals for the perceived threat on its existence. However some have done it in varying successes like Turkey and Tunisia.
7. Secularism is like a death penalty to any Arab/Muslim government (almost) and that's why we see the very first thing in any constitution is that it is based on Islam, if a constitution was present in the first place. What happened at the EU last night with Italy and Poland wanting to add "based on Christianity and European culture" just sickened me. Here we are aspiring to separate religion from politics and we see "the first world" countries wanting to impose texts that would take them back a few hundred years.
8. There is real and present danger for anyone and their families should they be seen as opposition in most if not all of our countries.
9. Free thought is not considered a virtue, but insolence.
10. We don't have any freedoms of the press to speak of, hence, they have to toe the official line, and provision of alternate thoughts and tolerance killed at infancy.
11. No Arab/Muslim government enjoys sympathy from their own people. We have learnt to not trust our governments for generations, hence, there is real absence of a sense of patriotism.
12. 11 would lead to not caring about whatever happens in our environment with thoughts ranging from "if it didn't happen to me or my family, I don't care" to "they deserve it, let the government clean up the mess, it's no skin off my nose."
These are some of the feelings I hear when interacting and traveling through the Gulf countries and speaking to other Arabs and Muslims.
I hope you understand the immense frustration we feel. It's not lethargy or not caring for our fellow human being. We do. We feel for everyone, but it is very difficult for an Arab to show emotion because of this ever present fear of state-sponsored-intimidation.
Should we just sit back and give up though? No chance. This situation IS changing to the better. Slowly mind you but is changing.
The irony is however is that Osama bin-Laden has served as a catalyst for this change! We despise what this animal has done for our way of life and reputation, but through his heinous acts it has FORCED change!
So we've back to the beginning of your assumption: Should change be imposed?
I think whether we like it or not it IS being and will continue to be imposed by the "west" and by the likes of bin-Laden. It's how we deal with that change and the opportunities presented by these factors is the question, and I don't have the answer for that one yet.
I believe that maybe there should be another way to impose this change, and that is by exploring partnerships and the world powers providing catalysts for change. Maybe a carrot and a stick scenario is one way: fix up your country or we won't trade with you...
But if we both - as peoples - just get frustrated and start throwing accusations and bombs at each other, we won't be fixing up any mess but adding to it.
Let's partner for peace. We KNOW that we have problems, you KNOW that you have problems, so how about calming down and looking at problems through the thoughts of partnership and try to fix them? Wouldn't that be a catalyst for change for the better?
or am I again just being naive?
Posted by: M at August 2, 2004 09:05 AM
M
for your consideration, here is the simple truth as expressed by Ibn Warraq:
There are moderate Muslims. Islam itself is not and can not be moderate.
Right, or it would take to remove to many verses from the Quran, don't you think so?
Posted by: Nikoz at August 2, 2004 10:20 AM
Furthermore,
how do we tell the wheat from the chaff, that is, distingush Ahl al-Jihad from from Ahl as-Salam?
And let me just once more remind you of Islamic taqiyya - concealment for the good of the Din (faith). Hypocrisy unlimited, in other words.
The problem is that NO Muslims can be trusted in this day and age. The stakes are too high.
Posted by: Nikoz at August 2, 2004 10:28 AM
moslems are the first victims of their ideology.
we can't know what percentage of them are 'radical' or 'moderate', so we need to keep our focus on the ideology.
since the ideology is impossible to change due to its historic and "divine" sanction, what moderate moslems say is irrelevant, since their ideology teaches them to lie to non/moslems.
to achieve total freedom from 'allah's' clutch,
i recommend that moslems receive Jesus Christ as their Saviour: this will cure them of their hatred.
yes i have read 'hatred's kingdom'.
its a helpful book, but like many secular observations: it doesn't go far enough for the solution.
islam will not be reformed:
but moslems can leave it if they choose, even if they live in a closed islamic state like arabia.
they can read a bible online and hear the Gospel message thru the power of the internet.
Posted by: forrestshalom at August 2, 2004 10:41 AM
M, do you really think you can divorce "religion" (i.e. an understanding and affirmation of moral truth) from politics? It's been tried -- in the USSR. In Cambodia. In Vietnam. In China. I'm afraid that law must concern itself with issues of right and wrong and therefore must align itself with principles derived from some source in order to stand. Would you want to live in a state where the only thing that prevented people from doing things was the fear of being caught? Here in the United States, we've had a president who thought that way and it messed us up for eight long years. No more.
As for what faith should we derive our precepts from, we know that atheism and Islam both don't work. Let's look at history to see what does work.
Posted by: NoMoreJihad at August 2, 2004 10:44 AM
Exactly. This continuation of appeasement of Islam is a tired joke and is going to cost too many innocent lives in the United States and the West.
Isn't it clear now, after the attacks on the churches in Iraq, that the Islamists will not stop until this becomes a cut and dried religious war for all involved?
Islam is the enemy. Anyone that that wishes to not be on the wrong side in the coming events can make a choice -- get involved in reforms of Islam to make it a true religion of peace that can exist in the modern world, or failing that, leave Islam or convert to one of the world's truly peaceful major religions like Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism or Buddhism.
The truth hurts.
Posted by: Foehammer at August 2, 2004 10:49 AM
Btw, leaving Islam is not a choice for most of the Muslim world because apostates are dealt with brutally more often than not.
Men are typically executed if apostasy is proven, and the women are beaten senseless until they repent and return to Islam or die from their wounds.
I also do not like anyone talking in terms that secularism does not go far enough. Secularism is what makes Christianity tolerable in our modern culture, lest anyone forgets, it was not so long ago that witches were burned at the stake and non-believers were put on torture wheels in Spain.
Don't start damning secularist ideas as being less wise than Christian ones, or you may very well start sounding like the Taliban yourselves.
Think about that.
God gave us brains to use them, not to live with blinders on.
Posted by: Foehammer at August 2, 2004 10:54 AM
M,
You have stated that you are a Republican, although your comments reflect the thinking of a "liberal" Democrat.Possibly you are a closet case liberal.
Basic "facts" about Islam
Islam is a religion of legalistic demands and merciless vengeance.It's "allged" prophet,Mohammed,(an avowed pedophile and child molester),when leading the Muslim armies in their conquests gave the non-believers three choices: 1) profess the faith of Islam,2) pay tribute or 3) die by the sword.
Islam is an ideology of intolorance,hate,subjugation and vindictive violence.
The Qu'an has no moral center,it preaches militant hate and death and destruction to the Infidel.
Islam, over the past 14 centuries has had a long and bloody history and it is not about to reform it's self now.In fact, with the spread of Wahabbism, Islam has only become more violent.
Your sanctimonious and appeasing posture, quite frankly makes me sick.
It is this very thinking that allowed Nazism and Fascism to spread.
The very center of Islam's core is evil.
History has taught us that evil can not be appeased, nor compromised with and never negotiated with.
The only way to deal with evil, is to destroy it!
Posted by: Son of Infidel at August 2, 2004 11:33 AM
Son of Infidel,
I am a 53 year old mother of 3 married to an exMarine; please do no insult me by calling me a closet liberal. But if I were one, that is none of your business.
I fully understand the message regarding infidels in the Qu'an, so spare me your copy and paste skills. Are their muslims that practice Islam to the letter, certainly, and they are the enemy. I submit there are many other muslims that do not and are no different than a Catholic who believes in God but has an abortion. Your failure to accept that fact and call for their destruction along with everyone else is no different than OBL and company. No doubt God would see you burning in hell a long time for that one; you and OBL will have ALOT to talk about. Don't ever take the moral high ground with me, cause you are simply WRONG.
Posted by: M at August 2, 2004 12:10 PM
Resister writes:
"Witness, your comments about living in perpetual fear, Im sorry if you feel this way, but to live in fear is no way to live at all. Until I start seeing ragheads in the street with guns or car bombs-im not gonna fear shit-especially not with Mr. Smith and Mr. Wesson in my belt. "
Witness responds:
Resister, go ahead and light up a smoke while I pour you another drink. Obviously, you are a West Point graduate.
No doubt you have the bad-guys on the run!
Given your strategic and tactical insights, I'm sure we'll have the troops "home by Christmas." With generals like you on our side, we in the west can sleep better tonight -- nuke suticases or not.
Pligram writes:
"The word "Allah" is just the Arabic word for "God." In the Arabic & English Bibles I obtained from the International Bible Society at the opening of the Gospel according to John, for example, the Arabic text uses "Allah."
Witness response
Pilgram, yours is the more liberal interpretation that I have been privy to over the years. A more conservative definition holds that the title "God" is attributed to a specific deity with unique attributes and who claims exclusive title to the term "God."
As such, the dieties "Allah" and "Yahweh" are separate and distinct persona who lay compeating claim to the tile "God."
Son of Infidel wrties:
Below are some breif facts about the Crusades.
The first Crusade began in 1096 and they lasted approximately 250 years.During this time there were many atocties, torturing,pillaging and massacring of civilians all in the name of Christ. Many of these victims were Byzantine Christians as well as Jews that were slaugthered.
This rage continued across Europe to Constantinople where in 1204 the city was pillaged and looted of most of its great treasures.
Unfortunately your reference to the Crusades was a poor choice as this was a dark period for the world and a stain on Christianity."
Witness responds:
The atrocities that you attribute to Christianity are sidebars in every conflagration. There are always innocents that forefit life and limb in the ugly business we call "war."
My allusion was to the over-arching response by the Christian West to the common threat posed by Islamists who started the invasions in the first place. The unity of purpose was a consideration for both sides during the period -- to wit: "destroy them." Granted there must have been nuasances as there always will be in these matters, but the commonality of purpose is an intriging feature of the crusade period.
In this context, my observation is that today the commonality of purpose on the part of the west is lacking. This to our detriment.
But with Resister leading the charge, I'm sure we're in good hands -- no?
To M:
I feel your pain to coin a phrase. You are not in a position that I envy and suggest that you need to make some very difficult choices. No doubt that you realize that already.
So than, what to do? God knows.
Posted by: witness at August 2, 2004 12:12 PM
M,
To compare the Islamo-terrorist-scum to people that recognize the real threat that they pose and understand what is necassry to deal with this threat, is idiotic and ignorant.
Futhermore, I am not impressed that you are married to an ex marine and to say that I will burn in hell is an over emotional reaction on your part.
If we follow your advice we will either all be dead or bowing to Mecca.
PS: I do not "copy and paste" I use my brain, a part of your body in need of great improvement.
PSS:I still say that you are a closet case "liberal"
Posted by: Son of Infidel at August 2, 2004 12:37 PM
From the Voice of America:
Iraqi Church Bombings Seen as Attempt to Split Religious Groups
Several of Iraq's top religious leaders have denounced Sunday's deadly bombings of five Christian churches in Baghdad and the northern city of Mosul. Iraqi government officials say those who attacked the churches were trying to drive a wedge between Christians and Muslims...
follow the link for more...
http://www.voanews.com/article.cfm?objectID=1DBE848E-D990-4A28-872081B3F11FF9E5
Posted by: al-Canine at August 2, 2004 12:41 PM
Here, from a former advisor to the US Department of State, is the truth about the church bombings.
Allahu akbar
Posted by: Reza at August 2, 2004 12:44 PM
witness,
Your interpertation of the Crusades is in error, and purely self serving.
Do some "research" and you will know the "truth".
"Like it or not, we are going to have to learn to live in perpetual fear like the Israelis"
Based on your above statement, I suggest that you get some tranquilizers to take while you are cowaring in the corner.
Posted by: Son of Infidel at August 2, 2004 12:57 PM
With regard to crusading
I'm writing my degree on the First Crusade, specifically the relationship of the Franks and Eastern Christians.
Witness is totally right about the common purpose notion. Son of Infidel gets it all wrong. I'll presume to explain.
The crusading ideal and the real backbone of the First Crusade was a war of liberation.
Those who took the cross after pope Urban II's mighty sermon at Clermont went off to set free the Holy City from the Muslim yoke. Along with that, the pope urged the Franks to help break the chains of fellow Christians in the East, whose lands had been laid waste by the infidels.
And verily, this spirit of unity and belief in God's support was to result in the Crusade's overwhelming success.
It is also noteworthy that the vast majority of the indigenous Christians proved supportive and helpful, take for example the Armenians of Edessa or the Maronites of Lebanon.
The eventual fall of the crusader states stemmed from the inability to cooperate with Byzantium and the mutual hostility initially triggered by Bohemond of Otranto, that's true.
For more information see the faximile of M. W. Baldwin's excellent account.
http://libtext.library.wisc.edu/HistCrusades/
Posted by: Nikoz at August 2, 2004 12:57 PM
Nikoz,
Please enlighten me, were there any Jews or Christians killed by the Crusaders, because if you had read my previous comments that is the point I was making.
"Needless to say, Peter's Quest was doomed. They behaved poorly along the route, thieving food and ransacking homes for supplies. The worst was the persecution of the Jews before even leaving Europe".
"The Jewish peoples had lived in relative quiet amongst the Christians up to this point. Though not accepted in the Communities, they were tolerated and business was conducted in a relatively civilized manor".
"The Jewish peoples had their own communities and though they were looked down upon, they were not opposed till now. Peter's army lacked funds. It was suggested that if the Crusaders could kill the enemies of God abroad, then what's to stop them at home. Let it be noted that the Church did not condone this. Bishops locally preached against this, and some were attacked for their preaching. The Bishop of Spier saved many lives, but at Warms the Bishop was driven from his home and the Jews he sheltered were slaughtered. Same thing at the town of Mainz. The Bishops could not stop Peter's army. They continued their rage across Europe to Constantinople".
"Arriving there, Alexis didn't know what to make of them. Not wanting them to stay to cause further trouble in his city, he made arrangements to have them shipped over the Bosphorus river to Anatolia. Five days after they arrived, in July 1096, they were moved to Turkey. Most never saw the Grand city of Constantinople much to Alexis' relief".
"Once in Anatolia, Peter's followers felt it was time to start Crusading in earnest, torturing, pillaging and massacring indiscriminately. However, as it turned out, most of their victims were Byzantine Christians who lived in and around Nicaea".
Posted by: Son of Infidel at August 2, 2004 01:19 PM
Witness,
Thanks for the concern, but I have been visiting JW for a very long time and understand the intolerance of some of the thought police here. My mother always taught me to do the right thing even if it hurts, and I am way too old to be told what I should believe.
While I might dream of mining the borders (I really mean that), stopping all immigration, deport all foreigners, and stop trading with the world and put Americans back to work being selfsufficient, that is never going to happen. Neither is nuking Mecca or destroying Islam. What we are going to kill billions of muslims now (good with the bad)because they practice some form of Islam? Don't think so. So others can rant on and make themselves feel pretty important by accomplish nothing. I would no sooner buy into that crap than I would with what OBL is selling. Wrong is wrong, pure and simple. We all have choices, and we can be part of the problem or part of the solution.
Posted by: M at August 2, 2004 01:39 PM
Nikoz,
Here is more "factual" information about the Crusades.
Good luck with your writing.
"The Seljuk Turks gained control of Jerusalem in 1071. Seljuk rule of Palestine lasted less than 30 years. In 1098, the Fatimids, based in Egypt, took advantage of the Seljuk struggles with the Christian crusaders from Europe. They allied themselves with the Crusaders and capt
Posted by: witness [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 3:36 PM
witness,
you repost another long pointless reposting like that that adds nothing to the coversation, and I'll do what I can to have you banned.
There is NO EXCUSE for abusing the board like that.
Posted by: Bob Owens [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 3:44 PM
Remember this much, all you apologists: The Crusades were a REACTION to centuries of Muslim aggression.
That's the part Islam never talks about.
And it wasn't too many centuries after the last Crusade that the Muslims went right back to their bombarding of Constantinople and invading Italy, Spain and the Balkans.
Muslims are the most masterful liars in history, but written record is written record and even the most ornate mosque can not hide every stone of a temple or church beneath it.
Posted by: Foehammer [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 3:54 PM
witness,
Have you nothing better to do with your time.
Your behavior is childish and disruptive.
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 4:02 PM
Perhaps you should check with the board folks,
seems we have two uid's using the name "witness"
I keep my posts to a minimum, for example:
"Here is more "factual" information about the Crusades.
Good luck with your writing.
"The Seljuk Turks gained control of Jerusalem in 1071. Seljuk rule of Palestine lasted less than 30 years. In 1098, the Fatimids, based in Egypt, took advantage of the Seljuk struggles with the Christian crusaders from Europe. They allied themselves with the Crusaders and capt
Posted by: witness at August 2, 2004 03:36 PM "
IS NOT MINE.
Posted by: witness [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 4:05 PM
Foehammer,
I am in agreement with you,however that does not excuse the atocities purportrated by the Crusaders aganist the Jews and other innocent non-muslims.
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 4:08 PM
Son of Infidel:
About the cowerdice stuff...I DID read you correctly the FIRST time. Your lucky the bar invitation was ever open to the likes of you.
You're a charming fellow and I appreciate your compliments and all -- but your rantings on this board make the rest of us look pretty silly.
Bob O.
Unless you are the owner of this board...well sir, you best stand-by sir... you best stand-by.
Posted by: witness [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 4:14 PM
There are always attrocities in war. The real evil manifests itself during times of relative PEACE.
Look around us -- who is intentionally raping and killing civilians in the world year in and year out?
There is no moral equivalency between ancient Crusades and the modern barbarism of Islamic Jihadists.
This gets back to the way I was raised -- don't start the fight, finish it.
It's really that simple.
Posted by: Foehammer [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 4:17 PM
witness,
I do not post rantings.
I post clear, succint, factual statements.
Finally, it is you who are doing the ranting, your posts are rife with them,evidently because, to quote you:
"Like it or not, we are going to have to learn to live in perpetual fear like the Israelis"
Stop living in perpetual fear and you will be a more relaxed person and you will not feel the need to take out your anxieties by repeatedly and deliberatelly placing these extremely long posts.
Sincerly,
Son of Infidel
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 4:38 PM
Wow, it's the longest thread I've seen at JW.
Son of Infidel,
Foehammer's just indicated what I was getting at. War has an ugly face. But nothing conceivably uglier than Islamic Jihad.
I hope you're with me on that.
Posted by: Nikoz [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 4:39 PM
witness, I assume by your comment that since you cannot apparently win an argument based upon the quality of your argument, you intend to do so based upon volume?
How very "Democratic Underground" of you.
Posted by: Bob Owens [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 4:46 PM
Nikoz,
I'm with you!
About the longest thread, it seems that witness an anxiety attack.
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 5:00 PM
Typo: witness "had" an anxiety attack.
Posted by: Son of Infidel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 5:02 PM
What makes you think he's a Democrat supporter?
Posted by: Nikoz [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2004 5:27 PM
Here's something really sad,while Muslim leaders are quick to scream Islamophobia and racism when Mosques are vandalized by pranksters on summer break from school,the Canadian media was so afraid of offending Muslims the reports
from Iraq stated the bombs went off near several buildings by unknown assailants.
This occured around evening services by worshippers in some of the buildings.
What a load of crap, Christians were Murdered by Muslims that used prater services to assure the Churches were busy. Just try bombing a Mosques
at anytime of the day,the Jihadist would be out in full force around the world ready to destroy
everything and everybody.
I've really tried to be fair to Islam and read the Quran and listen to Imam's and Muslims,but the hate and violence is to overt to be written off as a fringe group. The Quran promotes murder and Muhammed was a pedophile and misogenist,what's worse is that Muslims leaders try to promote Islam as slaughtering less people than other faiths.
Wow,now that's a real selling feature.
Posted by: ala-sux [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 3, 2004 12:12 AM
I was on the BBC website and below is the typical response from Muslims in the denial stage and paranoia mode. The "Have your say" question was on the Church bombings and a few posts were
much like this one.
Iraq before the war no longer had weapons of mass destruction nor what is branded as "international terrorism". Now that the war is over, Iraq still has no weapons of mass destruction but has, on the other hand, loads of mass explosions. Mr Bush and Mr Blair's "crusade" has eliminated a visible big monster and replaced him with numerous smaller invisible ones. The Iraqi Christians, never a target before, shall now live the fear that is felt by their 25 million Iraqi co-citizens. Thank you Mr Bush and Mr Blair for making the Middle East a safer place, for extremists to flourish, that is.
Nabil A Sasso, Dakar, Senegal
What compassion from these peaceful tolerant bunch,screw Sudan,let Allah sort out the infidels
and lets start have the Quran ruled hate-literature and see the Muslims prove it to be wrong.
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